Liverpool FC Official Thread

Glen Miller wrote:I am not trying to be funny, but I have always wondered why there are so many ceremonies/laying of wreaths in honour of this disaster.  I swear they occur more than once a year at Liverpool matches.

I think it's probably because there's been so much happening with it recently. In the last few years, there's been the release of documents, the Hillsborough "Independent" Panel giving their findings, the announcement of the inquest, the inquest itself going on twice as long as the Nuremberg trials, the 25 year anniversary coinciding with much of the above and Liverpool nearly winning the title etc. Many of the parents around the time are at the age where they'll be dying off now so there'll be wreaths related to that.

I expect it to continue for a long time, expect huge compensation battles, attempted prosecutions, appeals, campaigns etc. People have built their lives around this for 27 years, they're not going to stop now.

Keyser Söze wrote:

Scott_LFC wrote:

You're missing the point. At the time it was such common practise for fans to turn up without tickets. Everywhere. That's the purpose of turnstiles.. and the people who work at them.. to prevent these people from coming in. The fact the officials failed to do their job on the day of a Liverpool match is purely a coincidence. It could have happened to any set of fans. Had Liverpool been knocked out of the competition earlier and say, United fans were traveling to that stadium, the exact same thing would have happened.

I think you've missed my point. You seem to think it's either the officials or the fans, one or either. If you see my original point you'll see I posted that if people want to say officials were predominantly to blame then I don't have a problem with that. It's the part about fans having nothing to do with it that's simply wrong from a very basic rational.    

"common practise". Is that meant to be an excuse, it's OK to do something wrong so long as it's "common practise". If only those fans that had tickets had shown up then none of this would have happened. Fan did something they weren't supposed to do and it caused a situation that was badly handled. If fans don't do that thing they aren't supposed to do then the situation doesn't arise. Some blame should be leveled at some of the fans.

I don't know what would have happened had United fans been there instead. Maybe no or less tickless fans would have shown up, maybe they would have been more docile and left without a fuss. Can't say.

You're still missing the point. As I've said, ticketless fans turning up to games with every intention of trying to get into the ground was the norm. Everywhere.

So then it's up to the officials to do their jobs and prevent this minority group of fans from entering the stadium.

Prior to this game, and after this game, the officials did their jobs correctly, thus no similar incidences have taken place. On THIS day, however, the officials messed up and that minority group of ticketless fans got access into the stadium (it could have been any team's fans, it just so happened that on this day it was a Liverpool match, thus it was Liverpool fans who got in).

I maintain that it doesn't matter what team had travelled there that day. Ticketless fans would have entered the stadium due to the failure of the officials. Trying to assign actual blame onto the Liverpool fans (or chanting Always The Victims) alone is agenda driven

Why do you think it was covered up like it was? The officials knew they fucked up and that it was entirely their fault.

Thankfully the amount of people who share your warped view on this are in the minority (and hardly surprising, are fans of rival teams). Look at the papers today.. not one mention of any blame being assigned to the fans or a mention of the Jury getting it wrong. It's all about Justice and the truth finally coming out. Everyone (except the minority of agenda driven freaks) agrees that the Liverpool fans shouldn't be assigned any blame.

If any newspaper disagreed with the Liverpool fans as blameless victims story we know what would happen. It's like saying no newspapers in North Korea criticise Kim Jong Un so he must be a great leader.

The "always the victims, it's never your fault" song refers to the general attitude of Liverpool fans, Liverpool football club and Liverpool as a city. That chant started after Luis Suarez racially abused Patrice Evra and Liverpool football club reacted by blaming everyone and claiming there was a vast conspiracy against them. Hillsborough is probably the cause of the attitude, but it's not the subject of the song.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:If any newspaper disagreed with the Liverpool fans as blameless victims story we know what would happen.  It's like saying no newspapers in North Korea criticise Kim Jong Un so he must be a great leader.

The "always the victims, it's never your fault" song refers to the general attitude of Liverpool fans, Liverpool football club and Liverpool as a city.  That chant started after Luis Suarez racially abused Patrice Evra and Liverpool football club reacted by blaming everyone and claiming there was a vast conspiracy against them.  Hillsborough is probably the cause of the attitude, but it's not the subject of the song.

Fucking lol at likening it to NK papers not being allowed to criticise their leader. Godawful comparison.

It's not just the papers anyway, high profile footballers, actors, presenters, sports stars, etc are tweeting their joy. Like I said, it's only the small minority of agenda driven freaks peddling the narrative that Liverpool fans share some blame. If this whole thing happened to United, no doubt your attitude would be completely different.

You're wrong. That chant did not start after the Suarez debacle. I clearly remember it being sung years before that. Don't make shit up. Of course the subject of the song is Hillsborough (and probably Heysel too) but obviously United fans are going to justify the chant and pretend it isn't, by linking it to various other things. At the end of the day, United fans sing that song with the intention of Liverpool fans taking it as a reference to Hillsborough.

The aeroplane gestures Liverpool fans do are related to the plane that flew the Moyes Out banner over Old Trafford. Nothing to do with Munich

Scott_LFC wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:If any newspaper disagreed with the Liverpool fans as blameless victims story we know what would happen.  It's like saying no newspapers in North Korea criticise Kim Jong Un so he must be a great leader.

The "always the victims, it's never your fault" song refers to the general attitude of Liverpool fans, Liverpool football club and Liverpool as a city.  That chant started after Luis Suarez racially abused Patrice Evra and Liverpool football club reacted by blaming everyone and claiming there was a vast conspiracy against them.  Hillsborough is probably the cause of the attitude, but it's not the subject of the song.

Fucking lol at likening it to NK papers not being allowed to criticise their leader. Godawful comparison.

It's not just the papers anyway, high profile footballers, actors, presenters, sports stars, etc are tweeting their joy. Like I said, it's only the small minority of agenda driven freaks peddling the narrative that Liverpool fans share some blame. If this whole thing happened to United, no doubt your attitude would be completely different.

You're wrong. That chant did not start after the Suarez debacle. I clearly remember it being sung years before that. Don't make shit up. Of course the subject of the song is Hillsborough (and probably Heysel too) but obviously United fans are going to justify the chant and pretend it isn't, by linking it to various other things. At the end of the day, United fans sing that song with the intention of Liverpool fans taking it as a reference to Hillsborough.

When a large number of people feel very strongly about an issue and have a history of boycotts media organisations, many of which are losing money already, will tailor their content accordingly to avoid going bust.

Most of the people you're talking about have jobs with media organisations.  We both know that if someone questioned Liverpool's truth they would never get work on TV ever again.

Can you show me any video footage of the chant before the Suarez thing?  Any newspaper reports referring to it?  Any forum comments?  Any YouTube comments?  Anything?

Scott_LFC wrote:The aeroplane gestures Liverpool fans do are related to the plane that flew the Moyes Out banner over Old Trafford. Nothing to do with Munich

Here is proof that that is not the case

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/anfield-peace-is-short-lived-as-liverpool-and-manchester-united-fans-resume-hostilities-8166651.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/liverpool/9561494/Liverpool-and-Manchester-United-fans-end-watershed-day-by-relapsing-into-cruel-chants.html

Two separate media reports from before the Moyes plane went over.

Please provide similar proof of your claim about United fans singing "Always the victims, it's never your fault" before Suarez racially abused Evra.

I've already said that United fans hide behind different links to the song, but any idiot can see that the real underlining purpose of the song is to jab/wind up Liverpool fans about Hillsborough. Even Alex Ferguson condemned it and IIRC, asked your fans to stop singing it.

http://strettynews.com/explanation-its-never-their-fault/

"Another incident which has led United fans singing this song is the case of Michael Shields".

It's obvious that Liverpool fans take it as a Hillsborough reference, and United fans know that, so why continue to sing it?

I've explained why.

Can you show me any video footage of the chant before the Suarez thing? Any newspaper reports referring to it? Any forum comments? Any YouTube comments? Anything?

If the answer is no, if you made it up about remembering it from matches before 2011, please just say so. Evading the question is embarrassing.

I said I remember it being sung years ago and I do. It was at Anfield when I went to see a Liverpool vs United game not long after we won the CL. 

I have linked you to an article where it says it's been sung before. Sure, it was more prominent and noticeable after the Suarez thing, but it has been sung before. 

You're missing the point anyway. The chant/song is a sly dig at Hillsborough posing as a chant about other things. If you're gonna deny that then you're more idiotic than I thought.

Scott_LFC wrote:I said I remember it being sung years ago and I do. It was at Anfield when I went to see a Liverpool vs United game not long after we won the CL. 

I have linked you to an article where it says it's been sung before. Sure, it was more prominent and noticeable after the Suarez thing, but it has been sung before. 

You're missing the point anyway. The chant/song is a sly dig at Hillsborough posing as a chant about other things. If you're gonna deny that then you're more idiotic than I thought.

So show me something that says this is actually true and you haven't made it up. I've searched for anything pre 2011 and haven't found a single reference to it.

That article doesn't say it had been sung before (because it wasn't), it says that was part of the reason behind it.

I've told you what the chant is about, you've pretended it happened before the thing it refers to to try and prove that it referred to something else and been shown up. If the people chanting say it refers to one thing or to a general attitude and you take it as referring to one particular incident that happened 22 years before the chant was ever made then that's your problem.

I'm sick of politically correct wankers always trying to find something to be offended by.

Yep. More idiotic than I thought. Or just plain delusional.

The article says it was more prominently sung after the Suarez thing. That more than implies that it's been sung before.

If you want to be pedantic about it all, okay swap out that chant for "the sun was right, you're murderers".

It's boring how you're going after the little pedantic victories whilst ignoring what I'm actually talking about.

Right, if that is a reliable source then I refer you to this quote

“Always the victims, it’s never your fault” is a chant you hear United fans bellow week in week out from the terraces and the origins stem from a variety of sources, Hillsborough not included.

Debate over.

If that is not a reliable source then please refer to me to any source whatsoever from before Suarez racially abused Evra noting that song. Any source whatsoever, even some cunt on a forum or YouTube comments writing it.

If you can't do that please admit you made it up.

Please refer to my last comment.

I make no defence of that chant. Do you admit that you made it up about the Never Your Fault chant?

Nope. I remember it well. If you choose not to believe that, then that's your problem. You can stop being a pedantic freak now and get back to the main topic of discussion.

It's not pedantic, you are making up chants which never happened to try and make United look bad. Even when it's been clearly shown that it's not about Hillsborough and you can't find any evidence whatsoever of it being chanted before 2011, over 20 years after the disaster.

If you don't want me to be pedantic don't make things up.

Chanting "The Sun was right. You're murderers." is an obvious attempt to upset Liverpool fans. It's not driven by any agenda, it's not a serious argument and it's sung by a much smaller section of the fanbase than Always The Victims is.

Whatever you say, RR. It really was a small part of what my original comment was actually about. 

You're doing a good job of not appearing agenda driven

It was a small part of your original comment which you compounded by pretending you'd heard it years before.  If you'd been honest and just admitted that you first heard it in 2011 or 2012 after the Suarez racism incident we could have avoided this.

What agenda exactly?  I openly admit that a minority of United fans use Hillsborough as a stick to beat Liverpool with in the same way Liverpool fans use Munich as a stick to beat United with.  Both sets of fans lap this up so they can point at the other set of fans and go "Look what bastards they are!"  I find it extremely tedious.

My position on Hillsborough remains unchanged.  If people hadn't pushed to get in, if they had just waited nobody would have died.  The behaviour of the police was bad and the cover up was a disgrace, but it was a reaction to the culture of hooliganism at the time.  Liverpool fans contributed to this more than anyone with their vicious killings at Heysel.  

You can say all fans were hooligan bastards back then and I won't disagree with you, but for me that doesn't absolve any particular set of hooligan bastards.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:It was a small part of your original comment which you compounded by pretending you'd heard it years before.  If you'd been honest and just admitted that you first heard it in 2011 or 2012 after the Suarez racism incident we could have avoided this.

What agenda exactly?  I openly admit that a minority of United fans use Hillsborough as a stick to beat Liverpool with in the same way Liverpool fans use Munich as a stick to beat United with.  Both sets of fans lap this up so they can point at the other set of fans and go "Look what bastards they are!"  I find it extremely tedious.

My position on Hillsborough remains unchanged.  If people hadn't pushed to get in, if they had just waited nobody would have died.  The behaviour of the police was bad and the cover up was a disgrace, but it was a reaction to the culture of hooliganism at the time.  Liverpool fans contributed to this more than anyone with their vicious killings at Heysel.  

You can say all fans were hooligan bastards back then and I won't disagree with you, but for me that doesn't absolve any particular set of hooligan bastards.

It's still down to the officials to prevent these ticketless hooligans from entering the stadium, which prior to and after Hillsborough, they managed. On this occasion, the officials fucked up.

Scott_LFC wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:It was a small part of your original comment which you compounded by pretending you'd heard it years before.  If you'd been honest and just admitted that you first heard it in 2011 or 2012 after the Suarez racism incident we could have avoided this.

What agenda exactly?  I openly admit that a minority of United fans use Hillsborough as a stick to beat Liverpool with in the same way Liverpool fans use Munich as a stick to beat United with.  Both sets of fans lap this up so they can point at the other set of fans and go "Look what bastards they are!"  I find it extremely tedious.

My position on Hillsborough remains unchanged.  If people hadn't pushed to get in, if they had just waited nobody would have died.  The behaviour of the police was bad and the cover up was a disgrace, but it was a reaction to the culture of hooliganism at the time.  Liverpool fans contributed to this more than anyone with their vicious killings at Heysel.  

You can say all fans were hooligan bastards back then and I won't disagree with you, but for me that doesn't absolve any particular set of hooligan bastards.

It's still down to the officials to prevent these ticketless hooligans from entering the stadium, which prior to and after Hillsborough, they managed. On this occasion, the officials fucked up.

I agree.

Are you going to admit that you made it up about hearing that chant?

I didn't make anything up. I've already said it's your problem if you don't want to believe me.

I could just as easily say that prior to that day and after that day there were no incidents because those yobbish fans involved didn't show up to those games. An FA Cup semi final that would attract those particular fans is a unique event. The police are present for every game at Hillsborough so they are a regular occurrence and never had an issue. You introduce a unique element to a routine event and you get a unique outcome, it's obvious what the issue is. Your line of logic isn't compatible with your opinion.


2 of the 9 jury's didn't agree with the findings. Extrapolate that and it's nearly 25% of the population. Remove any outside pressure, fear and bullying and that number would quickly rise.

Scott_LFC wrote:I didn't make anything up. I've already said it's your problem if you don't want to believe me.

If you didn't make it up why isn't there a single reference to that chant on google's search from before late 2011? You are a total bullshitter.

Keyser Söze wrote:I could just as easily say that prior to that day and after that day there were no incidents because those yobbish fans involved didn't show up to those games. An FA Cup semi final that would attract those particular fans is a unique event. The police are present for every game at Hillsborough so they are a regular occurrence and never had an issue. You introduce a unique element to a routine event and you get a unique outcome, it's obvious what the issue is. Your line of logic isn't compatible with your opinion.


2 of the 9 jury's didn't agree with the findings. Extrapolate that and it's nearly 25% of the population. Remove any outside pressure, fear and bullying and that number would quickly rise.  

Honestly feels like I'm beating a dead horse here, but.. yobbish fans showed up to all games all over the county. On this instance, Police/Official failings meant that the yobbish fans got access into the stadium. You're having a fucking laugh if you think (especially 27 years ago), the police never had to deal with that sort of thing other than on the day of Hillsborough. It happened all the time.

Like it's been repeated about 100 times now, the police failings on the day led to the events. On previous occasions, the Police/Officials did their job correctly. The day of Hillsborough, they failed. 

That's a hell of a lot more likely a scenario than trying to say that maybe the Liverpool fans on the day were the only fans that behaved in that way  (again, especially when you're talking about 27 years ago).

Some of the stories I get told from my Dad, StepDad and even my Grandfathers make me cringe and wonder how they ever felt okay to go to a match with supporters like that around them. (Dad's a United fan, StepDad, Liverpool and Grandparents were Rangers/Celtic fans).

As for the bolded bit, lmao.. just lmao. Pressure? Fear of bullying? LMAO. Oh no.. the mighty Liverpool fans might revolt against us! 

What about the Jury people who rule on cases involving extremely dangerous criminals who could potentially still have people on the outside? They still throw them in Jail, regardless and that's a MUCH scarier scenario. Just fucking lmao if you think in this day and age, measures weren't taken to ensure that there was no bias going into the proceedings. 

2 out of 9 means roughly nearly 25% of the population would have agreed? That's way too small of a sample size for you to make such a claim  Bloody hell. You're getting a bit silly now, give your head a wobble.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Scott_LFC wrote:I didn't make anything up. I've already said it's your problem if you don't want to believe me.

If you didn't make it up why isn't there a single reference to that chant on google's search from before late 2011?  You are a total bullshitter.

Cry more.

What the fuck was that sing song in Liverpool today? Don't think even Americans care this much about 9/11. It's beyond exaggerated at this point.

JFT39