Same-sex marriage

menalawyerguy wrote:

Mr Leiva wrote:Homophobia is just as bad as Racism.

Nonsense. How many wars has homophobia started? The history of oppression in the name of race pales in comparison to the history of oppression in the name of homophobia.

You can't start a war over homophobia, but oppression over homosexuality has historically been very bad (an eminent British scientist was chemically castrated for being a homosexual), and today is certainly as bad as racism.

menalawyerguy wrote:Gotta agree with colliebudz on this. I don't agree with his position on the topic of gay marriage, but I do agree with what he's saying about the infraction. You're heading down a slippery slope with this.

Like Sean said, replace the world gay with black and people would have a problem. I'm all for freedom of speech if we're going to stop one then we have to stop the other.

Sean wrote:So gay people aren't humans?

You're completely missing the point.

I'm saying there is no difference between people of different races, only appearance.

Being gay is something that is wrong, but has been accepted.


Going by that logic, you think that interracial couples are wrong, but they've been accepted so they're ok now.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

Mr Leiva wrote:Homophobia is just as bad as Racism.

Nonsense. How many wars has homophobia started? The history of oppression in the name of race pales in comparison to the history of oppression in the name of homophobia.

You can't start a war over homophobia, but oppression over homosexuality has historically been very bad (an eminent British scientist was chemically castrated for being a homosexual), and today is certainly as bad as racism.

Alan Turing.

I honestly can;t believe this logic.

"Oh but if he was talking about black people you'd all be going mad at him"

I'm not fucking talking about black people. I see no difference in black people.

CollieBuddz wrote:I honestly can;t believe this logic.

"Oh but if he was talking about black people you'd all be going mad at him"

I'm not fucking talking about black people. I see no difference in black people.

I know you're not talking about black people, the point is that racism and homophobia are comparable in terms of discrimination.

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:Gotta agree with colliebudz on this. I don't agree with his position on the topic of gay marriage, but I do agree with what he's saying about the infraction. You're heading down a slippery slope with this.

Like Sean said, replace the world gay with black and people would have a problem. I'm all for freedom of speech if we're going to stop one then we have to stop the other.

Then threads like this are indeed pointless. How can you be against gay marriage if you don't view homosexuality as not equal? And if seeing homsexuality as not worthy of equality apparently warrants an infraction. Thus, the conversation is futile. I don't have a problem with homosexuality but the jury is out on whether or not it is engaged in by choice. The juror is not out with regard to race: it is a proven scientific fact that people cannot choose their own race. We don't know if they have a choice with regard to homosexuality. So until we do know, we shouldn't consider it the same as racism. Racism has a much longer and more brutal history. There are few ideologies that have wreaked more havoc than racism. So let's be careful when making the comparison.

No it's not.

Science tells us that black people are still the same species.

Science tells us the penis is meant for the vagina.

It's in no fucking way the same. This is the mentality I'm talking about. You've been brainwashed, and you're punishing me for not buying into it.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

Mr Leiva wrote:Homophobia is just as bad as Racism.

Nonsense. How many wars has homophobia started? The history of oppression in the name of race pales in comparison to the history of oppression in the name of homophobia.

You can't start a war over homophobia, but oppression over homosexuality has historically been very bad (an eminent British scientist was chemically castrated for being a homosexual), and today is certainly as bad as racism.

Historically, the oppression over homosexuality is fucking Disney Land compared to the history of oppression over race. So until we know for a proven scientific fact that homosexuality is as unchosen an aspect of a person's condition as his race is, let's not make the comparison. Let's just settle with "it's bad." But it's not racism bad.

menalawyerguy wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:Gotta agree with colliebudz on this. I don't agree with his position on the topic of gay marriage, but I do agree with what he's saying about the infraction. You're heading down a slippery slope with this.

Like Sean said, replace the world gay with black and people would have a problem. I'm all for freedom of speech if we're going to stop one then we have to stop the other.

Then threads like this are indeed pointless. How can you be against gay marriage if you don't view homosexuality as not equal? And if seeing homsexuality as not worthy of equality apparently warrants an infraction. Thus, the conversation is futile. I don't have a problem with homosexuality but the jury is out on whether or not it is engaged in by choice. The juror is not out with regard to race: it is a proven scientific fact that people cannot choose their own race. We don't know if they have a choice with regard to homosexuality. So until we do know, we shouldn't consider it the same as racism. Racism has a much longer and more brutal history. There are few ideologies that have wreaked more havoc than racism. So let's be careful when making the comparison.

Regardless of right or wrong, homophobia is still considered a hate crime by law the same way racism is, yes? (at least, I assume it is, you're a lawyer, you tell me) Does that alone not justify comparison?

It's taking me ages to type this stuff out, my head is killing me.

Hate crimes can be because someone is fat.

Should I be infracted for saying I hate fat people?

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:Gotta agree with colliebudz on this. I don't agree with his position on the topic of gay marriage, but I do agree with what he's saying about the infraction. You're heading down a slippery slope with this.

Like Sean said, replace the world gay with black and people would have a problem. I'm all for freedom of speech if we're going to stop one then we have to stop the other.

Then threads like this are indeed pointless. How can you be against gay marriage if you don't view homosexuality as not equal? And if seeing homsexuality as not worthy of equality apparently warrants an infraction. Thus, the conversation is futile. I don't have a problem with homosexuality but the jury is out on whether or not it is engaged in by choice. The juror is not out with regard to race: it is a proven scientific fact that people cannot choose their own race. We don't know if they have a choice with regard to homosexuality. So until we do know, we shouldn't consider it the same as racism. Racism has a much longer and more brutal history. There are few ideologies that have wreaked more havoc than racism. So let's be careful when making the comparison.

Regardless of right or wrong, homophobia is still considered a hate crime by law the same way racism is, yes? (at least, I assume it is, you're a lawyer, you tell me) Does that alone not justify comparison?

Homophobia is not a crime where I am from. Beating somebody down because they are gay is a crime and the fact that the victim's sexuality was the mtoive for the crime might get you more time in jail for it. But simply hating on gays without any violence or other sort of criminal activity to go along with it is not a crime.

btw-the same can be said about racism. It's not illegal to be racist. Not in America anyway.

You've been categorically proven wrong Zzonked. Stick your infraction up your arse. I've not insulted anyone. I've gave my views. You can;t accept them so you infract me. Have a word with yourself.

menalawyerguy wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:Gotta agree with colliebudz on this. I don't agree with his position on the topic of gay marriage, but I do agree with what he's saying about the infraction. You're heading down a slippery slope with this.

Like Sean said, replace the world gay with black and people would have a problem. I'm all for freedom of speech if we're going to stop one then we have to stop the other.

Then threads like this are indeed pointless. How can you be against gay marriage if you don't view homosexuality as not equal? And if seeing homsexuality as not worthy of equality apparently warrants an infraction. Thus, the conversation is futile. I don't have a problem with homosexuality but the jury is out on whether or not it is engaged in by choice. The juror is not out with regard to race: it is a proven scientific fact that people cannot choose their own race. We don't know if they have a choice with regard to homosexuality. So until we do know, we shouldn't consider it the same as racism. Racism has a much longer and more brutal history. There are few ideologies that have wreaked more havoc than racism. So let's be careful when making the comparison.

Regardless of right or wrong, homophobia is still considered a hate crime by law the same way racism is, yes? (at least, I assume it is, you're a lawyer, you tell me) Does that alone not justify comparison?

Homophobia is not a crime where I am from. Beating somebody down because they are gay, is a crime and the fact that you did it because the victim was gay will get you more time in jail for it. But simply hating on gays without any violence or other sort of criminal activity to go along with it is not a crime.

And an infraction is not a prison sentence. Do the same rules apply to racism too? I.E. holding and expressing racist beliefs is not a crime but acting on them is? Or is that treated differently?

You sort of changed the subject though, are crimes committed based on the sexuality of another given parity with crimes based on the colour of someone's skin?

CollieBuddz wrote:You've been categorically proven wrong Zzonked. Stick your infraction up your arse. I've not insulted anyone. I've gave my views. You can;t accept them so you infract me. Have a word with yourself.

So now you're pro putting things up there?

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

Like Sean said, replace the world gay with black and people would have a problem. I'm all for freedom of speech if we're going to stop one then we have to stop the other.

Then threads like this are indeed pointless. How can you be against gay marriage if you don't view homosexuality as not equal? And if seeing homsexuality as not worthy of equality apparently warrants an infraction. Thus, the conversation is futile. I don't have a problem with homosexuality but the jury is out on whether or not it is engaged in by choice. The juror is not out with regard to race: it is a proven scientific fact that people cannot choose their own race. We don't know if they have a choice with regard to homosexuality. So until we do know, we shouldn't consider it the same as racism. Racism has a much longer and more brutal history. There are few ideologies that have wreaked more havoc than racism. So let's be careful when making the comparison.

Regardless of right or wrong, homophobia is still considered a hate crime by law the same way racism is, yes? (at least, I assume it is, you're a lawyer, you tell me) Does that alone not justify comparison?

Homophobia is not a crime where I am from. Beating somebody down because they are gay, is a crime and the fact that you did it because the victim was gay will get you more time in jail for it. But simply hating on gays without any violence or other sort of criminal activity to go along with it is not a crime.

And an infraction is not a prison sentence. Do the same rules apply to racism too? I.E. holding and expressing racist beliefs is not a crime but acting on them is? Or is that treated differently?

You sort of changed the subject though, are crimes committed based on the sexuality of another given parity with crimes based on the colour of someone's skin?

An assault and battery on anybody for any reason other than self defense is a crime. Doing so because of the victim's sexuality warrants a heightened sentence. But crimes motivated by race are the king. They generally result in the most severe sentences in the hate crimes categories.

Be that as it may, why should racism warrant an infraction on a free and easy forum like this? Let the stupidity of the comment do the damage. That's why we don't bother making racism illegal in America. We let the person become a pariah and that is punishment enough. It's dangerous to punish people for their opinions. It's much more sound to punish them for their acts.

We let people make racist comments without punishment it'd spiral quickly into arguments and would turn people off the forum. Same with homophobic comments and the like. Relying on everyone ignoring the comment and making the person who made it a pariah wouldn't work as people wouldn't ignore it, and quite rightly too.

Then you may as well lock threads like these right out of the gate. There is absolutely no way to be against gay marriage without expressing sentiments that people who are pro-gay marriage are going to view as homophobic. It's an absolutely futile thread topic.

Once again, racism is a LOT worse than "homophobia".

Mainly because there is logic behind "homophobia".

Zzonked I fear you are well out of your depth trying to argue here. You know what the right thing is to do, in the interests of fairness, in the interests of right and wrong, I implore you to do it.

menalawyerguy wrote:Then you may as well lock threads like these right out of the gate. There is absolutely no way to be against gay marriage without expressing sentiments that people who are pro-gay marriage are going to view as homophobic. It's an absolutely futile thread topic.

I was very tempted to do so when I saw it. Same with the last thread about homosexuality.

menalawyerguy wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

Then threads like this are indeed pointless. How can you be against gay marriage if you don't view homosexuality as not equal? And if seeing homsexuality as not worthy of equality apparently warrants an infraction. Thus, the conversation is futile. I don't have a problem with homosexuality but the jury is out on whether or not it is engaged in by choice. The juror is not out with regard to race: it is a proven scientific fact that people cannot choose their own race. We don't know if they have a choice with regard to homosexuality. So until we do know, we shouldn't consider it the same as racism. Racism has a much longer and more brutal history. There are few ideologies that have wreaked more havoc than racism. So let's be careful when making the comparison.

Regardless of right or wrong, homophobia is still considered a hate crime by law the same way racism is, yes? (at least, I assume it is, you're a lawyer, you tell me) Does that alone not justify comparison?

Homophobia is not a crime where I am from. Beating somebody down because they are gay, is a crime and the fact that you did it because the victim was gay will get you more time in jail for it. But simply hating on gays without any violence or other sort of criminal activity to go along with it is not a crime.

And an infraction is not a prison sentence. Do the same rules apply to racism too? I.E. holding and expressing racist beliefs is not a crime but acting on them is? Or is that treated differently?

You sort of changed the subject though, are crimes committed based on the sexuality of another given parity with crimes based on the colour of someone's skin?

An assault and battery on anybody for any reason other than self defense is a crime. Doing so because of the victim's sexuality warrants a heightened sentence. But crimes motivated by race are the king. They generally result in the most severe sentences in the hate crimes categories.

Be that as it may, why should racism warrant an infraction on a free and easy forum like this? Let the stupidity of the comment do the damage. That's why we don't bother making racism illegal in America. We let the person become a pariah and that is punishment enough. It's dangerous to punish people for their opinions. It's much more sound to punish them for their acts.

I understand where you're coming from. I'd agree with the thing about racism, science has suffered at the stigma given to any discussion of race because it's such shaky ground. If we didn't have infractions for racism on the forum, he certainly wouldn't have gotten one for homophobia, but that's not the way the rules work on here and there is a need for some level of consistency.

Also do you accept that comparisons between racism and homophobia can be made though? Because in the eyes of the law they are on the same scale at similar but albeit slightly different points.

You're actually in a difficult position, the more I think about it. It's a tougher decision than it appears. On the one hand, we don't want to stifle debate. We want to have a lively forum. On the other hand, we don't want to start giving air to lunatics and nutters who are going to turn people off. It's a tight rope to walk.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Zzonked I fear you are well out of your depth trying to argue here. You know what the right thing is to do, in the interests of fairness, in the interests of right and wrong, I implore you to do it.

I'm not having an argument here. I don't expect anyone to change their views, I'm just trying to explain my thoughts and take on board what other people are saying.

If everyone agrees that this thread has run it's course I'm happy to close it.

What are trying to do RR? Get me banned? Are you that pathetic?

Zzonked wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Zzonked I fear you are well out of your depth trying to argue here. You know what the right thing is to do, in the interests of fairness, in the interests of right and wrong, I implore you to do it.

I'm not having an argument here. I don't expect anyone to change their views, I'm just trying to explain my thoughts and take on board what other people are saying.

If everyone agrees that this thread has run it's course I'm happy to close it.

Isn't that what everyone does when they argue? Anyway, homosexuals are minority in need of protection as much as dark skinned people (but apparently not the Japanese), I believe that an amendment should be made to this forum's rules to protect them from hate speech in the same way dark skinned people are protected - there are provisions against racism but none against homophobia.

CollieBuddz wrote:What are trying to do RR? Get me banned? Are you that pathetic?

I believe if the forum rules were consistent then you would be banned for expressing hateful and intolerant views. Your views are ignorant, repulsive, and prove the maxim that a little knowledge can be very dangerous.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Zzonked wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Zzonked I fear you are well out of your depth trying to argue here. You know what the right thing is to do, in the interests of fairness, in the interests of right and wrong, I implore you to do it.

I'm not having an argument here. I don't expect anyone to change their views, I'm just trying to explain my thoughts and take on board what other people are saying.

If everyone agrees that this thread has run it's course I'm happy to close it.

Isn't that what everyone does when they argue? Anyway, homosexuals are minority in need of protection as much as dark skinned people (but apparently not the Japanese), I believe that an amendment should be made to this forum's rules to protect them from hate speech in the same way dark skinned people are protected - there are provisions against racism but none against homophobia.

I think arguments are more based around trying to convince people you're right. The distinction here is that I'm not expecting people to agree with me, only understand my point of view. There's not a big difference, but I'm just picky like that.

CollieBuddz wrote:Once again, racism is a LOT worse than "homophobia".

Mainly because there is logic behind "homophobia".

Racists argue that there is logic behind racism. That's just how it works.

I believe you have the right to defend your position against homosexuals, I have no issue to that, but I believe you did cross a line with some parts of your posts, I believe you put quotations over the word people which would imply that you think homosexuals are less human, maybe that was someone else's post but I'm on a mobile so it's hard to check back.

I find your support for homosexuality ignorant, repulsive, and proves the maxim that a little knowledge can be very dangerous.

My view is equally as valid as yours.