World Cup 2014 discussion thread.

Grenade wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Putting your worst penalty takers first is good strategy,

Pls explain  

The pressure increases with each penalty.

So happy! Just one more game and Messi can lift that title!

But realistically, I see Germany winning.

http://www.reddit.com/r/soccer/comments/2a7zzu/brazil_v_germany_already_has_its_own_wikipedia/

downvoted

Glen Miller wrote:

Grenade wrote:

Pls explain  

The pressure increases with each penalty.

What he said.

Would Maxi have had the character to convert that penalty had he not played for Liverpool for a few years?  I'm not convinced.

Glen Miller wrote:

Grenade wrote:

Pls explain  

The pressure increases with each penalty.

Brb misses and puts team under much more pressure.

Grenade, would you rather have the greater pressure on your best or worst kicker?

There are pros and cons to doing it both ways. The amount of ignorant cunts who think it's completely obvious which way to do it and Van Gaal is an idiot for doing something different is staggering though. People really don't think it through.

Glen Miller wrote:

Grenade wrote:

Pls explain  

The pressure increases with each penalty.

First team to miss loses 82% of the time.

Argentina as champions would be the dampest of all squibs.

Rei Andros wrote:

Glen Miller wrote:
The pressure increases with each penalty.

First team to miss loses 82% of the time.

Argentina as champions would be the dampest of all squibs.

Of course they do, that's because most teams follow the conventional wisdom of putting their best takers first. That means that when they miss either a) their best taker has missed, leaving only the shitter ones or b) it's towards the end of the shootout putting maximum pressure on the worst takers.

Rei Andros wrote:

Scuba Steve wrote:Is there a good reason to continue the state cups? That would seem like the logical thing to drop from the calendar.

Knew I missed something. So there are good arguments for and against it. Against because the only games people really care about are the big games. The rest of them might as well be attended by tumbleweed. Takes off too much time of the calendar, and is an example of the big clubs being at the beck and call of the small clubs. (Every state gets one vote so the CBF caters to everyone.)

The argument for centers around it being the way small clubs survive through the revenue they get from facing bigger clubs. Some clubs only have the state championship so their ssn starts in January and ends in May. Discontinuing the state championships would probably see a lot of them go bust. Another argument is that they're good for revealing talent at the smaller clubs. Then there's the historical reasoning. The state championships have been around since about 1911 (I think). A national leagues wasn't established until 1971 or so.

The best compromise would be a complete restructuring with the big clubs either completely removed or playing far less games. The CBF is lazy and incompetent though, so I don't see this happening soon. There's a movement created by players called Bom Senso trying to lobby for improvements in Brazilian football, but they haven't been able to bring about any changes yet.

Great info, I was just thinking the other day who was the last great Brazilian central midfielder, seems all they prodice is defensive midfieldrers and number 10s.

Plays Krul
wins

plays Cillessen
loses

tactical masterclass.


Hopefully Argentina win so Messi can be cemented as the undisputed GOAT. And Sabella is an extremely likable manager.

Keyser Söze wrote:Plays Krul
wins

plays Cillessen
loses

tactical masterclass.


Hopefully Argentina win so Messi can be cemented as the undisputed GOAT. And Sabella is an extremely likable manager.  

sabella was the first man to apply a mineirazo in 2009, its was no low for germany  

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Rei Andros wrote:
First team to miss loses 82% of the time.

Argentina as champions would be the dampest of all squibs.

Of course they do, that's because most teams follow the conventional wisdom of putting their best takers first.  That means that when they miss either a) their best taker has missed, leaving only the shitter ones or b) it's towards the end of the shootout putting maximum pressure on the worst takers.

Like when Hodgson pulled that genius move letting Stevie G and Wayne Rooney bury their penalties with ease before throwing Ashley Cole and Ashley Young into the frying pan.

Glen Miller wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Of course they do, that's because most teams follow the conventional wisdom of putting their best takers first.  That means that when they miss either a) their best taker has missed, leaving only the shitter ones or b) it's towards the end of the shootout putting maximum pressure on the worst takers.

Like when Hodgson pulled that genius move letting Stevie G and Wayne Rooney bury their penalties with ease before throwing Ashley Cole and Ashley Young into the frying pan.

Just ignore when Cole converted the fourth penalty in the 2008 Champions League final and the fourth penalty in the 2012 Champions League final. It strengthens your argument tenfold.

Scuba Steve wrote:

Glen Miller wrote:
Like when Hodgson pulled that genius move letting Stevie G and Wayne Rooney bury their penalties with ease before throwing Ashley Cole and Ashley Young into the frying pan.

Just ignore when Cole converted the fourth penalty in the 2008 Champions League final and the fourth penalty in the 2012 Champions League final. It strengthens your argument tenfold.

Steven Gerrard and Rooney have both taken and converted high-pressure penalties, and both have taken probably dozens of times as many as Ashley Cole has taken. Ashley Cole also missed one against Everton in an FA Cup match, if I remember correctly.

The fact of the matter is that Gerrard and Rooney both buried theirs (Buffon even guessed the right way on Gerrard's) while Cole hit one slowly and slightly off center into the arms of Buffon.  In fact, his penalty was so dreadful that Buffon didn't even have to parry it out, he just fell over and let it roll into him.  Ashley Young, meanwhile, completely lost his head and kicked it as hard as he could.

Are you seriously prepared to argue that Ashley Young and Ashley Cole are better penalty takers than Steven Gerrard and Wayne Rooney?

Glen Miller wrote:

Scuba Steve wrote:

Just ignore when Cole converted the fourth penalty in the 2008 Champions League final and the fourth penalty in the 2012 Champions League final. It strengthens your argument tenfold.

Steven Gerrard and Rooney have both taken and converted high-pressure penalties, and both have taken probably dozens of times as many as Ashley Cole has taken. Ashley Cole also missed one against Everton in an FA Cup match, if I remember correctly.

The fact of the matter is that Gerrard and Rooney both buried theirs (Buffon even guessed the right way on Gerrard's) while Cole hit one slowly and slightly off center into the arms of Buffon.  In fact, his penalty was so dreadful that Buffon didn't even have to parry it out, he just fell over and let it roll into him.  Ashley Young, meanwhile, completely lost his head and kicked it as hard as he could.

Are you seriously prepared to argue that Ashley Young and Ashley Cole are better penalty takers than Steven Gerrard and Wayne Rooney?

Ah this old dance again. I provide evidence to say that Ashley Cole has converted high pressure penalties before (including one a month before the miss you mention), which apparently implies that I think he's better than Gerrard and Rooney at penalties. Bravo, only you could bridge that gap.

EDIT

So in addition, Cole also converted the 4th penalty for Arsenal against Manchester United in the 2005 FA Cup final. The miss for Chelsea against Everton (fourth round FA Cup replay, probably not as much pressure as say a FA Cup final, or a Champions League final, or an European Championship quarterfinal) came as the fifth taker.

I haven't gone as far back yet in his Arsenal career to see if he had any other penalty attempts in shootouts, or the League Cup, but as far as I know right now, he was 3/3 as the fourth taker when Hodgson sent him up against Italy. Hardly constitutes throwing him into the frying pan, eh?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/fa_cup/4300405.stm

That doesn't specify which penalty taker he was, but they list him fourth, so I'll assume he was the fourth when Arsenal defeated Sheffield United in 2005 in the FA Cup. Which would have made him 4/4 before the Italy game as the 4th taker.

FINAL EDIT

Several other times his teams were in penalty shootouts, but he either didn't take one or wasn't taking part of the game (for Chelsea or Arsenal, doesn't appear that he played in a cup game for Crystal Palace). But, luckily enough for you, I just remembered to check the rest of England's shootout results. Didn't participate in 2006 (though maybe he should have!), but he converted for England in 2004 (though for some reason, they used him sixth). 

So, in the position Hodgson used him in during 2012, Cole was 4/4. Overall, he was 5/6 before Euro '12, taking 4 penalties in the 4th spot, 1 in the 5th spot, and 1 in the 6th spot.

Eviscerated

I think the best takers should usually go first, if the bad takers go first and miss, chances are your good players might not even get to take a penalty and you end up with this

.

Sounds like no one wanted one with the Dutch last night though.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Rei Andros wrote:
First team to miss loses 82% of the time.

Argentina as champions would be the dampest of all squibs.

Of course they do, that's because most teams follow the conventional wisdom of putting their best takers first.  That means that when they miss either a) their best taker has missed, leaving only the shitter ones or b) it's towards the end of the shootout putting maximum pressure on the worst takers.

I'd argue that the most sensible thing to do with regards to the first penalty, is to pick one of your best penalty takers, because that first penalty is so important.

I'd also argue that if the better player missed the first penalty, that doesn't then put pressure on the lesser players to score theirs. In fact, I think it reduces the pressure as they'll be thinking "well, our best penalty taker has already missed, so it won't look so bad if I miss too, really", which will relax them, subconsciously.  

Whereas if a lesser player takes it first and scores, then that puts more pressure on the better players to score their penalties too.

Also it looks like Van Gaal has said 2 players refused to take the first penalty. That sounds like weak management to me. "Oh, you refuse, oh, okay, that's alright, you don't have to go first, sweetheart".

Should have told them to man the fuck up and take them in the order than he wants. Thought he had balls?

Scott_LFC wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Of course they do, that's because most teams follow the conventional wisdom of putting their best takers first.  That means that when they miss either a) their best taker has missed, leaving only the shitter ones or b) it's towards the end of the shootout putting maximum pressure on the worst takers.

I'd argue that the most sensible thing to do with regards to the first penalty, is to pick one of your best penalty takers, because that first penalty is so important.

I'd also argue that if the better player missed the first penalty, that doesn't then put pressure on the lesser players to score theirs. In fact, I think it reduces the pressure as they'll be thinking "well, our best penalty taker has already missed, so it won't look so bad if I miss too, really", which will relax them, subconsciously.  

Whereas if a lesser player takes it first and scores, then that puts more pressure on the better players to score their penalties too.

I'd say it's more likely that they'd think, "Oh no, the better penalty taker missed, so I really need to score this. If the keeper saved his, what chance do I have?"

SBSP wrote:

Scott_LFC wrote:

I'd argue that the most sensible thing to do with regards to the first penalty, is to pick one of your best penalty takers, because that first penalty is so important.

I'd also argue that if the better player missed the first penalty, that doesn't then put pressure on the lesser players to score theirs. In fact, I think it reduces the pressure as they'll be thinking "well, our best penalty taker has already missed, so it won't look so bad if I miss too, really", which will relax them, subconsciously.  

Whereas if a lesser player takes it first and scores, then that puts more pressure on the better players to score their penalties too.

I'd say it's more likely that they'd think, "Oh no, the better penalty taker missed, so I really need to score this. If the keeper saved his, what chance do I have?"

Er, wtf. No. That's stupid.

Simon Hughes ‏@Simon_Hughes__ 2 hrs
Van Gaal: takes all the credit. Shares all the blame. #management

It's actually hilarious that he's whining about 2 players refusing to take the first penalty. So weak.

How is that stupid? If you're behind on penalties, it's absolutely crucial to score. If you're ahead by one or two, then you might be able to get away with missing.

Fuck, also taking credit for the Agentina goalkeeper saving the penalties

"I taught Romero how to stop penalties, so that hurts," Van Gaal said. "We were the club to bring him to Europe.
"He was a big talent, and someone who has the qualities to do that

What an absolute cunt. All about him.

SBSP wrote:How is that stupid? If you're behind on penalties, it's absolutely crucial to score. If you're ahead by one or two, then you might be able to get away with missing.

I've been in penalty shootouts myself and am basing it off my own experience. Not saying school cup matches are comparable to the WC, but the situation remains the same. Seeing the best player in the team miss a penalty before it was my go relaxed me massively.

If the first 3 penalty takers scored, and you were the fourth, there would be huge pressure on you.

If 2 of the first 3 missed, and you were the fourth, the pressure wouldn't even be comparable to the above scenario.