2011 Africa & Middle East Protests/Revolutions

More protests today. Tomorrow, there is a planned 1 million march (in each major city) to the Presidential Palace. This will hopefully put an end to this. The markets around the world are taking a hit due to the crisis. Oil is rising over $100 a barrel. If the Egyptians can't force Mubarak out, the international community eventually will. They don't need more financial turmoil.

Israel is trying to convince the USA and other governments to back Mubarak. Fuck off! They are so stupid. Mubarak will leave eventually, Israel is just committing political suicide. The new Egyptian government will now be more anti-Israel as a result of this and Israel are the only ones to blame. Israel had a chance to form a friendly relationship with the new Egyptian government if they had an ounce of respect for humanity and freedom, but they just made matters worse.

We're not going to force him before we figure out what to do about a transition. We can't just let Egypt collapse into a power vacuum. That'll make things worse. Of course we're going to back Mubarak for the time being while at the same time advocating elections. But somebody needs to remain in the void in the meantime. You can't have elections tomorrow. What happens in the interim? You may wind up in an even bigger shitstorm than you're in right now. Do you want the Brotherhood to take over? So...careful what you wish for. It's not like Mubarak is going to leave and then the next day you're going to have democracy.

menalawyerguy wrote:We're not going to force him before we figure out what to do about a transition. We can't just let Egypt collapse into a power vacuum. That'll make things worse. Of course we're going to back Mubarak for the time being while at the same time advocating elections. But somebody needs to remain in the void in the meantime. You can't have elections tomorrow. What happens in the interim? You may wind up in an even bigger shitstorm than you're in right now. Do you want the Brotherhood to take over? So...careful what you wish for. It's not like Mubarak is going to leave and then the next day you're going to have democracy.

We already have plans for a transition. The Muslim Brotherhood and every major opposition group has put full support behind Mohamed ElBaradei. He is to negotiate for the Egyptian opposition groups and take as interim leader until free and proper elections take place. If the Muslim Brotherhood wanted to take control, they wouldn't be putting all their support behind ElBaradei. I know that elections won't happen overnight.

I think the fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is baseless. It might be in the best interests of the West and Israel to not have the Muslim Brotherhood in power, but I don't think they will be in power regardless. First, the Muslim Brotherhood isn't an extremist group. They are quite moderate as Islamic political groups come. More importantly, the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't have a majority of support. Most Egyptians don't support the Muslim Brotherhood. Ignoring the Muslim Brotherhood is a major mistake. They must be part of the new government. They are a legitimate political group and have quite some support, although not a major one. Ignoring them will just cause more hate.

It's not for you or any foreign government to choose the next government/leader of Egypt. It's up to the Egyptian people. If the Egyptian people freely elect someone from the Muslim Brotherhood as their leader, then so be it. It's none of anyone's business. That's what true democracy is about. If the Muslim Brotherhood ends up winning power and not live up to their promises to the Egyptian people, then the people can just revolt again like they are doing now. The barrier of fear has been broken for the Egyptian people.

The events in Egypt can't be compared to Iran. In Iran, the revolution was started by the Islamic group. The revolution in Egypt was started by normal people (mostly educated youth) fed up with corruption. In Iran, the Islamic group had a leader. In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't have a distinct leader. The Muslim Brotherhood didn't even join the protests until Day 3.

If you are following events in Egypt, you will see their is a sense of unity and true need of democracy. Christians form human chains to protect Muslims from the riot police while they are praying. Today, Muslims formed community watches to protect Churches in Alexandria. This isn't a religious revolution. This is a revolution by Egyptian people (Muslim or Christian, Educated or not, Young and old, Rich and poor).

menalawyerguy wrote:We're not going to force him before we figure out what to do about a transition. We can't just let Egypt collapse into a power vacuum. That'll make things worse. Of course we're going to back Mubarak for the time being while at the same time advocating elections. But somebody needs to remain in the void in the meantime. You can't have elections tomorrow. What happens in the interim? You may wind up in an even bigger shitstorm than you're in right now. Do you want the Brotherhood to take over? So...careful what you wish for. It's not like Mubarak is going to leave and then the next day you're going to have democracy.

We already have plans for a transition. The Muslim Brotherhood and every major opposition group has put full support behind Mohamed ElBaradei. He is to negotiate for the Egyptian opposition groups and take as interim leader until free and proper elections take place. If the Muslim Brotherhood wanted to take control, they wouldn't be putting all their support behind ElBaradei. I know that elections won't happen overnight.

I think the fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is baseless. It might be in the best interests of the West and Israel to not have the Muslim Brotherhood in power, but I don't think they will be in power regardless. First, the Muslim Brotherhood isn't an extremist group. They are quite moderate as Islamic political groups come. More importantly, the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't have a majority of support. Most Egyptians don't support the Muslim Brotherhood. Ignoring the Muslim Brotherhood is a major mistake. They must be part of the new government. They are a legitimate political group and have quite some support, although not a major one. Ignoring them will just cause more hate.

It's not for you or any foreign government to choose the next government/leader of Egypt. It's up to the Egyptian people. If the Egyptian people freely elect someone from the Muslim Brotherhood as their leader, then so be it. It's none of anyone's business. That's what true democracy is about. If the Muslim Brotherhood ends up winning power and not live up to their promises to the Egyptian people, then the people can just revolt again like they are doing now. The barrier of fear has been broken for the Egyptian people.

The events in Egypt can't be compared to Iran. In Iran, the revolution was started by the Islamic group. The revolution in Egypt was started by normal people (mostly educated youth) fed up with corruption. In Iran, the Islamic group had a leader. In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood doesn't have a distinct leader. The Muslim Brotherhood didn't even join the protests until Day 3.

If you are following events in Egypt, you will see their is a sense of unity and true need of democracy. Christians form human chains to protect Muslims from the riot police while they are praying. Today, Muslims formed community watches to protect Churches in Alexandria. This isn't a religious revolution. This is a revolution by Egyptian people (Muslim or Christian, Educated or not, Young and old, Rich and poor).

From what I've read, ElBaradei doesn't quite have that kind of consensus support, especially from the Brotherhood in particular.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12320959

A spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood, Mohamed Morsy, told the BBC: "The people have not appointed Mohamed ElBaradei to become a spokesman of them.

"The Muslim Brotherhood is much stronger than Mohamed ElBaradei as a person. And we do not agree on he himself to become representing [sic] this movement, the movement is represented by itself, and it will come up with a committee... to make delegations with any government."


We'll see. If Muabarak has to go before elections can take place, I guess nobody makes more sense to fill the void than ElBaradei. But we better hope he fills it all. Because if not, usurpers tend to rise up in situations like this. And that won't do anybody any good. There's no harm in Mubarak maintaining power until elections take place. Not at this point. There's too much attention on the situation now and too much pressure from foreign governments for him to slime his way back into a position of strength. It's too late for him. The international community won't let him get away with prolonging free and fair elections.

menalawyerguy wrote:From what I've read, ElBaradei doesn't quite have that kind of consensus support, especially from the Brotherhood in particular.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12320959

A spokesman for the Muslim Brotherhood, Mohamed Morsy, told the BBC: "The people have not appointed Mohamed ElBaradei to become a spokesman of them.

"The Muslim Brotherhood is much stronger than Mohamed ElBaradei as a person. And we do not agree on he himself to become representing [sic] this movement, the movement is represented by itself, and it will come up with a committee... to make delegations with any government."


We'll see. If Muabarak has to go before elections can take place, I guess nobody makes more sense to fill the void than ElBaradei. But we better hope he fills it all. Because if not, usurpers tend to rise up in situations like this. And that won't do anybody any good. There's no harm in Mubarak maintaining power until elections take place. Not at this point. There's too much attention on the situation now and too much pressure from foreign governments for him to slime his way back into a position of strength. It's too late for him. The international community won't let him get away with prolonging free and fair elections.

That quote has some truth in it. By putting support behind ElBaradei as interim president or negotiator, that doesn't mean they are choosing him as a representative of the Muslim Brotherhood. For example, they aren't saying that ElBaradei should become the next president, but one that can transition the country into a democracy for their to be free and fair elections. Once there are proper elections in place, they obviously won't be telling him to run for President under the MB.

And that spokesperson is right that the MB is stronger than ElBaradei. They are more in touch with the Egyptian people. ElBaradei lives most of his life outside of Egypt and has been criticized by some as taking advantage of the current crisis to gain popularity.

Another point I want to make is that the real problem isn't just about Mubarak. It's about the system. Mubarak can easily appoint his son (which is what he was trying to do before this crisis) or any other person from the same party. What has changed? It's just the same policies and corruption with a new face. The people don't want that. So the people are not thinking that with Mubarak gone, everything is solved. Rather, there needs to be a whole new system in running things. And the first step is to have free and fair elections (preferably monitored by a foreign 3rd party). If Mubarak stays in power until the 2011 elections, the elections are going to be fixed again like every time in the past. No candidate can ever get 99% of the votes without fixing elections. And if he isn't going to fix it in his win, he is going to fix it for someone of his own party.

(polskaGOLA) wrote:I don't get it?

egypt's in africa, the middle east is a different continent, the country they labelled isn't egypt. atb.

I just heard Fareed Zakaria (CNN) say something interesting and I tend to agree with his statement. He is saying Obama should pick up the phone and call Mubarak and tell him it's over. But rather than telling him to leave office the next day, he would tell him to publicly announce that he will not run for reelection later this year. At the same time appoint ElBaradei as the head of sort of the transition team that will form a new constitution.

I agree with that, but I'd like to add a guarantee of a foreign 3rd party that overlooks the elections later this year to avoid another corrupt election that will favor the National Democratic Party. But I think the majority of Egyptians might not agree to this. They just want Mubarak out right now.

ricky//habana wrote:

(polskaGOLA) wrote:I don't get it?

egypt's in africa, the middle east is a different continent, the country they labelled isn't egypt. atb.

I think he was joking.

ahlycotc wrote:I just heard Fareed Zakaria (CNN) say something interesting and I tend to agree with his statement. He is saying Obama should pick up the phone and call Mubarak and tell him it's over. But rather than telling him to leave office the next day, he would tell him to publicly announce that he will not run for reelection later this year. At the same time appoint ElBaradei as the head of sort of the transition team that will form a new constitution.

I agree with that, but I'd like to add a guarantee of a foreign 3rd party that overlooks the elections later this year to avoid another corrupt election that will favor the National Democratic Party. But I think the majority of Egyptians might not agree to this. They just want Mubarak out right now.

ricky//habana wrote:

(polskaGOLA) wrote:I don't get it?

egypt's in africa, the middle east is a different continent, the country they labelled isn't egypt. atb.

I think he was joking.

I don't know how the Egyptian people would react to a foreign nation appointing ElBaradei as the transition overseer, regardless of his competence, I believe it would be better if the Egyptian people chose him.

Roloman4 wrote:

ahlycotc wrote:I just heard Fareed Zakaria (CNN) say something interesting and I tend to agree with his statement. He is saying Obama should pick up the phone and call Mubarak and tell him it's over. But rather than telling him to leave office the next day, he would tell him to publicly announce that he will not run for reelection later this year. At the same time appoint ElBaradei as the head of sort of the transition team that will form a new constitution.

I agree with that, but I'd like to add a guarantee of a foreign 3rd party that overlooks the elections later this year to avoid another corrupt election that will favor the National Democratic Party. But I think the majority of Egyptians might not agree to this. They just want Mubarak out right now.

ricky//habana wrote:

(polskaGOLA) wrote:I don't get it?

egypt's in africa, the middle east is a different continent, the country they labelled isn't egypt. atb.

I think he was joking.

I don't know how the Egyptian people would react to a foreign nation appointing ElBaradei as the transition overseer, regardless of his competence, I believe it would be better if the Egyptian people chose him.

Well from my understanding, he has the support of the opposition groups including the Muslim Brotherhood. I also think the majority of the Egyptian people wouldn't mind seeing him as interim president or transition leader. Maybe they could hold a quick election or poll to see if he has the majority of support for that role.

ahlycotc wrote:

Roloman4 wrote:

ahlycotc wrote:I just heard Fareed Zakaria (CNN) say something interesting and I tend to agree with his statement. He is saying Obama should pick up the phone and call Mubarak and tell him it's over. But rather than telling him to leave office the next day, he would tell him to publicly announce that he will not run for reelection later this year. At the same time appoint ElBaradei as the head of sort of the transition team that will form a new constitution.

I agree with that, but I'd like to add a guarantee of a foreign 3rd party that overlooks the elections later this year to avoid another corrupt election that will favor the National Democratic Party. But I think the majority of Egyptians might not agree to this. They just want Mubarak out right now.

ricky//habana wrote:

(polskaGOLA) wrote:I don't get it?

egypt's in africa, the middle east is a different continent, the country they labelled isn't egypt. atb.

I think he was joking.

I don't know how the Egyptian people would react to a foreign nation appointing ElBaradei as the transition overseer, regardless of his competence, I believe it would be better if the Egyptian people chose him.

Well from my understanding, he has the support of the opposition groups including the Muslim Brotherhood. I also think the majority of the Egyptian people wouldn't mind seeing him as interim president or transition leader. Maybe they could hold a quick election or poll to see if he has the majority of support for that role.

I don't contest that he has support and is certainly competent, however, I wouldn't think the Egyptian populace would take Obama just phoning Mubarak and appointing ElBaradei too kindly. As I said, if anyone is to be elected as interim president, it should be by the Egyptian people.

If Mubarak wanted to show an ounce of change, he would at least open the internet and communication in the country. Closing the internet is only going to make matters worse. But he isn't interested in change. He is threatening and punishing the people for uprising.

ahlycotc wrote:If Mubarak wanted to show an ounce of change, he would at least open the internet and communication in the country. Closing the internet is only going to make matters worse. But he isn't interested in change. He is threatening and punishing the people for uprising.

What do you expect from a dictator that's been in place for decades?

The same thing is happening to Chavez, he's on his last legs, however, he refuses to concede.

Roloman4 wrote:I don't contest that he has support and is certainly competent, however, I wouldn't think the Egyptian populace would take Obama just phoning Mubarak and appointing ElBaradei too kindly. As I said, if anyone is to be elected as interim president, it should be by the Egyptian people.

Well what's the point of electing an interim president? If you are going to hold elections, you might as well make them for a permanent (in the sense of a presidential term) president. The process of holding campaigns and the sort will take months. By that time, the real presidential elections will have come.

Like I said, they could have a quick poll to see if everyone trusts ElBaradei. You don't necessarily need people to support ElBaradei, just have trust in him to set up proper elections. Or it could just be announced that ElBaradei is going to take the position of interim president/chair and see how the protesters react to it. If they go out in the streets again and protest the decision, then they obviously don't want him to be the interim.

You'e missing my point,you don't want an foreign head of state taking the decisions.

I know ElBaradei is trusted an supported, and with elect I mean choose.

I think I understand you, but I still think the people are making the final decision regardless. If the Egyptian people agree to having ElBaradei as interim, they will stay silent or show support. If they don't agree with the decision, they will make their voice heard. Obama's would be suggestion or decision won't be a "set in stone" thing. You see what I'm saying? It doesn't matter who comes up with the initial suggestions as long as the Egyptian people have the final say.

ahlycotc wrote:I think I understand you, but I still think the people are making the final decision regardless. If the Egyptian people agree to having ElBaradei as interim, they will stay silent or show support. If they don't agree with the decision, they will make their voice heard. Obama's would be suggestion or decision won't be a "set in stone" thing. You see what I'm saying? It doesn't matter who comes up with the initial suggestions as long as the Egyptian people have the final say.

I see, perhaps Obama is the best choice to make such a suggestion, seeing the power and influence he wields.

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4512553/part-2-palin-takes-on#/v/4519054/muslim-brotherhood-a-threat-to-take-power/?playlist_id=87937



Especially the last part, "This revolution would not have taken place without the Muslim Brotherhood".

And look at who they interviewed. You call this "fair and balanced" Fox News? I don't mind the fact that you have fears over the a Egypt run by the MB, but the way you are presenting it is un-fucking-believable.

Assassins creed shit there

Reports of almost 2 million people in Tahrir Square, Cairo!!

Also reports of a coalition of 10 people formed by the opposition group are willing to negotiate with Omar Soliman, the new VP of Egypt, under one condition: Mubarak must leave now. Now get out!!

Mubarak is expected to make a speech on State TV soon. US reports are saying he will announce that he won't run for reelection in September of this year. The big question now is will the protesters accept that? They have been clear that they want him to leave now. I think the best solution is to have him leave in September. Let's have the opposition group take a few months in transition (forming a new constitution) and campaigning for the elections later this year. Mubarak is powerless now anyways.

He'll just pass through laws to take away all elections and hire some U.S. mercenaries to control the country

Hosni Mubarak spoke to the nation for the second time since the protests started a week ago. Over a million protesters waited anxiously in Tahrir Square to listen to their current president. Although the people in the streets were hoping this speech would be the one where Mubarak announces his immediate resignation, reports out of the United States media claimed that Obama’s administration pressured Mubarak to announce that he will not run for re-election, which is set to take place in September of this year. The United States media turned out to be right as Mubarak announced that he will finish out his current and last term.

The Speech

Mubarak’s second speech was filled with denial and little lies just like his first speech. The following are the most memorable quotes from his speech…

“These demonstrations moved from a civilized expression of practicing freedom of speech to -- to sad confrontations which were -- which were organized by political groups who wanted to throw fire on the oil and to threaten the stability, and provoke, and create looting and destruction and fires, and to block roads, and to attack national possessions and public and private possessions, and attacks on some diplomatic missions on Egypt.”

Actually, the protests turned violent when the riot police opened fire with tear gas and water cannons on the protesters who were planning on staying in Tahrir Square overnight last Tuesday. More importantly, the looting and was mainly pulled off my released criminals and plain clothed police.

“I never wanted power or prestige”

30 years of ruling and fixed elections says otherwise.

“I will say with all honesty -- and without looking at this particular situation -- that I was not intent on -- on standing for the next elections”

Why did you not announce this before the protests started if it was your intentions all along? Also, WikiLeaks has released documents that reported that you were likely to seek re-election. More importantly, the protesters aren’t worried only about the chance of you running for re-election, they are not pleased with the current system, one that would have installed another dictator in your place.

“I have spent enough time in serving Egypt”

You don’t need to tell us that!

“The constitutional item 77 and 76 (ph) should be changed according to allow very specific periods for presidency, and in order for the parliament to be able to discuss these constitutional changes and the legislative changes which -- of the laws linked to the constitution, and in order to guarantee that all political powers will contribute to these discussions, I ask of the parliament to commit to -- to speed up the elections.”

Progress. But instead of saying “should be changed”, you could have spent the last three days or so making those changes happen instead of spending that time shuffling faces in your cabinet.

“I also want to ask censorship authorities and legislative authorities to carry out immediately every measure to pursue those who are corrupt and those who have been responsible for what has happened of all the destructive acts and looting and fires that have taken place in Egypt.”

Those legislative authorities could start cracking down on who are corrupt by cracking down on you and the police who let out the criminals to loot and cause havoc.

“I have lived in this country. I have fought for it. I have defended its sovereignty and interest, and I will die on its land, and history will judge me and others.”

This signals that he will not run to exile like Tunisia’s president and will remain in this country as a citizen until he dies.

The full transcript of the speech can be read here: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2011/02/01/transcript-of-egyptian-president-hosni-mubaraks-remarks/

The Reaction & Future

Protesters were obviously not happy with Mubarak’s speech despite his announcement of not running for re-election. The crowds quickly chanted for him to leave tomorrow. A few minutes later pro-Mubarak protesters clashed with the huge number of anti-Mubarak protesters as the army fired shots in the air to calm matters. Al Jazeera reporters interviewed a few anti-Mubarak protesters. The protesters seemed adamant to stay at Tahrir Square until morning, but they seemed unsure as what to do after that and are initially confused as to how they feel about Mubarak’s speech and insistence to stay for eight more months.

The army faces a very difficult situation for days to come as emotions will surely rise and it could be tempted to use force one way or another. The army has promised not to open fire at the protesters, but after the speech they opened fire in the air as a warning. The protesters are also encouraging the army to take action against Mubarak and force him out of office. This Friday seems like the deadline set by protesters for Mubarak to leave office or else. Don’t be surprised to see violence pick up by the end of this week.

My Opinions

I personally have two solutions for the following months until September’s elections. My first solution involves Mubarak staying in power until his current term is over. Before that can be accepted though, some guarantees must be made.

The 30 year emergency law must be abolished immediately. This is a no brainer. What is Mubarak waiting for?
1. All internet and mobile communications must be returned to normal immediately.
2. All protesters, political prisoners and journalists must be immediately released from prison.
3. All news and media groups should be allowed to film and report in Egypt freely. Al Jazeera's office should be reopened.
4. By this Friday, constitutional amendments must be made, specifically one that puts a term limit on any future President and one that allows independents and other political opposition to run for President freely.
5. The Muslim Brotherhood and any other religious political party must be unbanned from taking part in politics. The Muslim Brotherhood has some support and should be able to negotiate and take part in a diverse transition team to a democracy. Ignoring them from the process will cause more harm than good. Whether they are allowed to take the presidential position in the future, is a matter to be debated and voted on later.
6. A diverse transition team compromised of the main opposition groups and a group representing the common Egyptian protesters and people should be formed soon (preferably by this Friday). This transition team will take the role of transitioning the country into a democracy by working and negotiating with the current government. Mubarak should stay as far away from this transition unless called upon for help.
7. Free, fair and transparent elections in September. Would be an added bonus to have a coalition of foreign parties that overlook the elections to look for corruption.

So far, Mubarak has done nothing but talk and take no action. Firing the Cabinet and appointing a Vice President and other faces is not action. The people want real action and NOW! The above conditions along with their timelines are reasonable I believe. If not all conditions are not met by this Friday, protesters will most likely take things to the next level. By keeping Mubarak in his position for the last eight months, it will keep economic stability and street order. The country is suffering financially and people are running out of food.

My second solution involves Mubarak leaving before his term is up based on increased and clear demands from protesters for him to leave now.

1. Mubarak must leave his position by this Friday. According to protesters, if he doesn’t leave by Friday, things will seem to get worse. The opposition groups also refuse to negotiate with Omar Soliman until Mubarak leaves office.
2. Omar Soliman, the current and new Vice President, will take the position of President after Mubarak leaves until elections later this year.
3. During Soliman’s temporary term, a transition team, as stated above, is to be formed and negotiate with Soliman and his government about a transition to a democracy for the upcoming elections.
4. The other amendments and laws stated in the first solution should also be implemented by Friday.
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Tell me what you think about my solutions and share yours.

ricky//habana wrote:

(polskaGOLA) wrote:I don't get it?

egypt's in africa, the middle east is a different continent, the country they labelled isn't egypt. atb.

I'm aware, it's just that the image had nothing to do with Egypt?

[quote="ahlycotc"]

menalawyerguy wrote:

I think the fear of the Muslim Brotherhood is baseless. It might be in the best interests of the West and Israel to not have the Muslim Brotherhood in power, but I don't think they will be in power regardless. First, the Muslim Brotherhood isn't an extremist group. They are quite moderate as Islamic political groups come.

Saying they are as "moderate" as Islamic political groups come is like saying Elton John is as "straight" as flaming homosexuals come. Ok, yea, relative to Hamas and Hezbollah, they're quite reasonable. But that's not saying much, is it? While the trepidation towards the Muslim Brotherhood may be overblown in some corners, I don't think it can be considered entirely baseless. Their rhetoric is often times alarming. They've openly advocated shutting down the Suez Canal and preparing for war with Israel.

Could this be Egypt's Tiananmen Square Square moment? Let's hope not.

Egypt's armed forces on Wednesday told protesters clamouring for an end to President Hosni Mubarak's 30-year-rule that their demands had been heard and they must clear the streets.

The army warning came as international pressure grew on Mubarak to quit and his closest ally, the United States, told him bluntly that a political transition must begin immediately.

But an opposition coalition called for the protests in Cairo's Tahrir Square to continue.

Crowds gathered in the square for a ninth day of protests, rejecting Mubarak's promise on Tuesday that he would not stand in elections scheduled for September. They want him to go now.
A military spokesman, addressing the protesters on state television on Wednesday morning, said: "The army forces are calling on you. You began by going out to express your demands and you are the ones capable of restoring normal life."

It was a clear call for protesters to leave the streets. And although the army had previously said the people had "legitimate demands" and soldiers would not open fire on them, it set up a possible confrontation if they failed to do so.

At the same time, curfew hours were eased.

Meanwhile the ripple effect of the Egyptian uprising spread across the Middle East, with Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh saying on Wednesday he was ready to give up power in 2013.

Mubarak's offer to step down in September was his latest gambit in a crisis that erupted last week as public frustration with corruption, oppression and economic hardship boiled over.

At the weekend he reshuffled his cabinet and promised reform but it was not enough for protesters. One million took to the streets of Egyptian cities on Tuesday calling for him to quit.

Retired diplomat and Nobel peace laureate Mohammed ElBaradei, who has emerged as a leading figure in an opposition coalition that includes the Islamist Muslim Brotherhood, dismissed Mubarak's latest move as a "trick".

International backing for Mubarak, for three decades a stalwart of the West's Middle East policy and styled as a bulwark against the spread of militant Islam, has crumbled as he tried to brazen out the crisis.

US President Barack Obama spoke to Mubarak for half an hour by telephone on Tuesday night after the 82-year-old strongman announced his plan to step down in September.

"What is clear and what I indicated tonight to President Mubarak is my belief that an orderly transition must be meaningful, it must be peaceful and it must begin now," Obama said after speaking to him.

Pressure also came from Turkey, an important diplomatic voice in the Muslim world. Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan said Mubarak's plan to step down did not meet the people's expectations and the change should begin sooner rather than later.

Some of the few words of encouragement for him have come from oil-giant Saudi Arabia, a country seen by many analysts as vulnerable to a similar outbreak of discontent.

Israel, which signed a peace treaty with Egypt in 1979, is also watching the situation in its At least 1,500 people were in Tahrir Square again on Wednesday morning. Many had camped in tents and under blankets, determined to stay until Mubarak goes.

Banners measuring some 20 metres read: "The people demand the fall of the regime." Many downtown shops remained closed.

Fucking Mubarak, he just put the country in a civil war right now. As we speak, pro-Mubarak supporters (which are mainly plain clothed police) are attacking anti-Mubarak protesters. They army is in the middle trying to stop this, but the pro-Mubarak protesters are hurling rocks over the tanks and landing on the people. Reports are even saying people are getting payed 50 Egyptian Pounds to join the pro-Mubarak people.

Mubarak has made not one single change yet and we expect to believe all those promises in 8 months? He said he won't run for re-election, yet that's what he said during his first term over 20 years ago! Look where that has brought us. Plus, this isn't about re-election or just Mubarak. We want a change in the regime and we want it now! All the constitutional changes he talked about would require months and months of waiting because the current Parliment is made of members who fixed elections. By the time the courts hear over 100 cases, it would be September already. FUCK MUBARAK! If this revolution fails, I'm not stepping one more foot in Egypt again (especially since I will probably be arrested).

I'm watching the riots on Al Jazeera. Fuckin wild. Dangerously close to the national museum too.

menalawyerguy wrote:I'm watching the riots on Al Jazeera. Fuckin wild. Dangerously close to the national museum too.

Yeah. Al Jazeera is claiming the National Musuem has basically been set up as a army base. That's why the shots are being fired close from there.

Let's hope nothing happens to the artifacts in that museum. You can't replace that stuff.

But more importantly, let's hope this doesn't get worse. It hasn't been totally out of control but you sense that it could really errupt soon.