The Atheist Thread

The Bible says the earth is flat? I think that's just a misinterpretation, or just a general twisting by the church at the time.

ahlycotc wrote:Did the bible say the world was flat?

Pretty sure it did. For what reason would the church defend the world being flat so much as to declare it heresy to say otherwise?

Like wise with how earth rotates around the sun and not the other way around.

You have to remember the church was very corrupt.

polska. wrote:

SBSP wrote:That's not a matter of belief. That's a matter of knowledge.

But middle aged Christians did believe it, because religion said so.

So all middle aged scientists were Christians?

SBSP wrote:You have to remember the church was very corrupt.

It was, but this has nothing to do with the church being corrupt.

Bye_Ya wrote:

polska. wrote:But middle aged Christians did believe it, because religion said so.

So all middle aged scientists were Christians?

All middle aged christian scientists were indeed christians.

Yes, the Bible implied that the Earth is flat, it said it had 4 corners. The Koran also claims that a guy walked to the westernmost part of the world and saw the Sun setting into a muddy spring, and said that the moon and the Sun orbit around the Earth.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Yes, the Bible implied that the Earth is flat, it said it had 4 corners. The Koran also claims that a guy walked to the westernmost part of the world and saw the Sun setting into a muddy spring, and said that the moon and the Sun orbit around the Earth.

Source?

SBSP wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Yes, the Bible implied that the Earth is flat, it said it had 4 corners. The Koran also claims that a guy walked to the westernmost part of the world and saw the Sun setting into a muddy spring, and said that the moon and the Sun orbit around the Earth.

Source?

The same source you base your beliefs on.

polska. wrote:

SBSP wrote:Source?

The same source you base your beliefs on.

No, a direct quotation.

But back then there were non-Christian scientists that believed the world was flat. It was just as much of a scientific belief as it was a religious rule, or whatever. You can't say that non-Christian scientists who believed the world was flat did so because of religion.

SBSP wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Yes, the Bible implied that the Earth is flat, it said it had 4 corners. The Koran also claims that a guy walked to the westernmost part of the world and saw the Sun setting into a muddy spring, and said that the moon and the Sun orbit around the Earth.

Source?

Isaiah 11:12
Sura 18:83-86

Bye_Ya wrote:But back then there were non-Christian scientists that believed the world was flat. It was just as much of a scientific belief as it was a religious rule, or whatever. You can't say that non-Christian scientists who believed the world was flat did so because of religion.

But if these books really were divinely inspired by an omniscient God, surely they would not say that the world was flat.

83. And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: "I shall recite to you something of his story."

84. Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything.

85. So he followed a way.

86. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

There's nothing there that says the sun revolves around the earth.

I don't know what books you are referring to. But it doesn't say that in the Koran or the Bible, to my knowledge.


And that wasn't my point. You just redirected the conversation.


The point is that (from a neutral position) it is incorrect to attribute the mistaken belief of the world being flat to religion, when in fact there were non-religious scientists at the time who also believed incorrectly that the world was flat.

SBSP wrote:

83. And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: "I shall recite to you something of his story."

84. Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything.

85. So he followed a way.

86. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

There's nothing there that says the sun revolves around the earth.

What, that's what strikes you as odd from that passage? Not the fact it claims that your infallible book claims that the sun sets into black muddy or hot water at it's 'setting place'?? Are you fucking serious? You can't still believe this shit.

Anyway, here's the passage where it is claimed that the Sun orbits the Earth

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/13/index.htm#2

Bye_Ya wrote:I don't know what books you are referring to. But it doesn't say that in the Koran or the Bible, to my knowledge.


And that wasn't my point. You just redirected the conversation.


The point is that (from a neutral position) it is incorrect to attribute the mistaken belief of the world being flat to religion, when in fact there were non-religious scientists at the time who also believed incorrectly that the world was flat.

Well on that point I agree with you. The religious books say the Earth is flat because people at the time believed it was flat.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Bye_Ya wrote:I don't know what books you are referring to. But it doesn't say that in the Koran or the Bible, to my knowledge.


And that wasn't my point. You just redirected the conversation.


The point is that (from a neutral position) it is incorrect to attribute the mistaken belief of the world being flat to religion, when in fact there were non-religious scientists at the time who also believed incorrectly that the world was flat.

Well on that point I agree with you. The religious books say the Earth is flat because people at the time believed it was flat.

Yes, but you are making it sound like religion is the problem, corrupting people's beliefs of a flat world, etc. When in fact, it was a scientific belief that said so at the time, regardless of religion.

That is not what I am intending to imply.

Fair enough then.


But what people do too much in these types of arguments is make blanket statements, even if indirectly.

But if these books really were divinely inspired by an omniscient God, surely they would not say that the world was flat.

There is a lot more to it than what this statement questions.


What if part of the books were divinely inspired, and not the other parts, etc?


People try to break down a situation like this scientifically while doing a poor job by science's standards, ie. not including all possible evidence and variables.

He likes twisting what other people say.

Bye_Ya wrote:Fair enough then.


But what people do too much in these types of arguments is make blanket statements, even if indirectly.

But if these books really were divinely inspired by an omniscient God, surely they would not say that the world was flat.

There is a lot more to it than what this statement questions.


What if part of the books were divinely inspired, and not the other parts, etc?


People try to break down a situation like this scientifically while doing a poor job by science's standards, ie. not including all possible evidence and variables.

If some bits we can prove to be false, then that casts doubt on the whole thing, doesn't it? It is certainly not reliable enough that one should base one's behaviour, one's voting habits, one's entire world view, on what it commands, because the bits you are basing it on could very well be false.

You've not proved anything in the Qur'an false...

The Sun doesn't set into a muddy spring.

QED.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

If some bits we can prove to be false, then that casts doubt on the whole thing, doesn't it? It is certainly not reliable enough that one should base one's behaviour, one's voting habits, one's entire world view, on what it commands, because the bits you are basing it on could very well be false.

Correct, but I come from the area of the US known as the "Bible Belt", and what you are describing only applies to the most extreme religious people I have met, even in that area.

For every irrational and obnoxious religious person that exists, there are literally probably four that are level-headed, and sensible. You act like everyone that goes to church is a zombie that never questions what they really believe, or what the Bible/Koran says.

Bye_Ya wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

If some bits we can prove to be false, then that casts doubt on the whole thing, doesn't it? It is certainly not reliable enough that one should base one's behaviour, one's voting habits, one's entire world view, on what it commands, because the bits you are basing it on could very well be false.

Correct, but I come from the area of the US known as the "Bible Belt", and what you are describing only applies to the most extreme religious people I have met, even in that area.

For every irrational and obnoxious religious person that exists, there are literally probably four that are level-headed, and sensible. You act like everyone that goes to church is a zombie that never questions what they really believe, or what the Bible/Koran says.

Not at all, despite their wacky beliefs I reckon that Ahly and SBSP lead relatively normal lives in the real world. It doesn't make what they believe, and the logical moral conclusions of what they believe, any less wacky though, and it doesn't change the fact that it will inevitably influence their voting behaviour, and influence what they teach their children. I won't stand for that.

polska. wrote:

ahlycotc wrote:Did the bible say the world was flat?

Pretty sure it did. For what reason would the church defend the world being flat so much as to declare it heresy to say otherwise?

Like wise with how earth rotates around the sun and not the other way around.

If the Bible said that the Earth was flat, then it wouldn't make sense for Christians to continue to believe in the Bible nowadays. However, to my knowledge, the Bible doesn't claim that the Earth is flat. I would like a reference to such a verse.

The Quran definitely doesn't claim that the Earth is flat. In fact, it says the Earth is round and that it revolves around the Sun as does the moon.

This ignorant fucker doesn't realise I've already cited the passages.

News Flash: The Sun never sets in the ocean/sea

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Not at all, despite their wacky beliefs I reckon that Ahly and SBSP lead relatively normal lives in the real world. It doesn't make what they believe, and the logical moral conclusions of what they believe, any less wacky though, and it doesn't change the fact that it will inevitably influence their voting behaviour, and influence what they teach their children. I won't stand for that.

I would agree that your true beliefs will inevitably be reflected in how you live your life, but again you are making a blanket statement. You can't say, for example, that they will definitely vote based on their religious beliefs.

I'm most concerned about the bolded part. How far will you go to do something about it? And what are you actually even doing about it now, besides wumming people that have beliefs?

And on what grounds are you correct, as to assume that you should do something about it? Can you prove that God does not exist?

What makes religion an invalid reason to vote for something? I'm sure there are people who vote for much stupider reasons.