Gaza conflict

You could consider Hamza Yusuf and Suhaib Webb as somewhat progressive.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Keyser Söze wrote:

I like him, but I think it's a sad state of affairs that only conservative muslims are seen as "good".

You're following a 1500 year old religion based on words in a book that claim to be inerrant, conservatism is part of the package.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're trying to say.

SBSP wrote:You could consider Hamza Yusuf and Suhaib Webb as somewhat progressive.

And is that a good thing?

Well what would you prefer?

Muslims that don't pick and choose ideas just to suit modern western norms. Muslims that don't label others "terrorist" or "extremists" just because they follow Quranic ideals.

Isn't that being conservative?

Yeah, sorry my point was confusing because I was looking at it from a non-muslim standpoint.

Ah okay. Conservative is a bit of a strange word even with context.

So Israel broke the 72-hour ceasefire because it claimed that Palestinian militants captured an Israeli soldier. Today, they say he wasn't kidnapped after all! How many lies are they going to get away with? They start this whole conflict based on lies and they break a ceasefire based on lies too.

FCB wrote:So Israel broke the 72-hour ceasefire because it claimed that Palestinian militants captured an Israeli soldier. Today, they say he wasn't kidnapped after all! How many lies are they going to get away with? They start this whole conflict based on lies and they break a ceasefire based on lies too.

It's a war, mistakes happen in wars. I'm glad the soldier is OK, aren't you?

How many kids have to die before the Palestinians realise that using violence against a state far far more powerful than them is a bad idea for them?

Yeah, how about they all offer to suck Netanyahu's circumcised dick while they're at it?

SBSP wrote:Yeah, how about they all offer to suck Netanyahu's circumcised dick while they're at it?

Rejecting violence doesn't equate to sucking someone off.  It's just the decent thing to do. It's also the rational thing to do as it happens, it's totally in their interest to do it.

I agree that they should stop firing rockets, but trying to put the majority of the blame on the victim is pathetic.

SBSP wrote:I agree that they should stop firing rockets, but trying to put the majority of the blame on the victim is pathetic.

The only victims I blame are the terrorists and people who voted for the terrorists or supported them in other ways. The rest are victims of the violence initiated by their fellow Palestinians.

Hamas are not one-dimensional terrorists like you keep implying. They've done a lot domestically for the people of Palestine.

SBSP wrote:Hamas are not one-dimensional terrorists like you keep implying. They've done a lot domestically for the people of Palestine.

I would never say that they are one dimensional, they are extremely shrewd people who are doing what they believe is right but operating under very dangerous delusions. Any of the good they have done for the people of Palestine is vastly outweighed by the amount of air strikes, ground invasions and pervasive security Israel is forced to engage in to combat them.  The important part of your post is that they are terrorists and I am fundamentally against terrorism in almost all circumstances as are most decent people.

What alternative do the people have over Hamas? What makes terrorism in response to illegal occupation so much worse than killing civilians in response to that terrorism?

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

FCB wrote:So Israel broke the 72-hour ceasefire because it claimed that Palestinian militants captured an Israeli soldier. Today, they say he wasn't kidnapped after all! How many lies are they going to get away with? They start this whole conflict based on lies and they break a ceasefire based on lies too.

It's a war, mistakes happen in wars.  I'm glad the soldier is OK, aren't you?

Lol if Hamas did the same thing, you'd wouldn't be saying it's just a mistake. You'd be criticizing them.

Unlike Israel, Hamas has killed more soldiers than civilians during this war. Yet somehow, they are the ones who are terrorists and just want to kill civilians.

SBSP wrote:What alternative do the people have over Hamas? What makes terrorism in response to illegal occupation so much worse than killing civilians in response to that terrorism?

Form a new organisation that rejects terrorism and opts to pursue peace. The terrorism is the cause of the illegal occupation, they should reject it if not because they are decent people, but because it suits their interests. Accidentally killing civilians in pursuit of military targets is unfortunate, terrorising civilians deliberately is evil.

FCB wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

It's a war, mistakes happen in wars.  I'm glad the soldier is OK, aren't you?

Lol if Hamas did the same thing, you'd wouldn't be saying it's just a mistake. You'd be criticizing them.

Unlike Israel, Hamas has killed more soldiers than civilians during this war. Yet somehow, they are the ones who are terrorists and just want to kill civilians.

Hamas' wouldn't do the same thing, they don't require any justification for their terrorist acts. Israel obviously isn't going to make up stories about someone being kidnapped so they can break a ceasefire that they wanted in the first place.

Hamas are responsible for every single death on both sides, and they delight in all of them. The Israelis because they hate Jews, the Palestinians because in their world view they're on their way to paradise now and it's also great PR. These are the people the Palestinians support.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

SBSP wrote:What alternative do the people have over Hamas? What makes terrorism in response to illegal occupation so much worse than killing civilians in response to that terrorism?

Form a new organisation that rejects terrorism and opts to pursue peace.  The terrorism is the cause of the illegal occupation, they should reject it if not because they are decent people, but because it suits their interests. Accidentally killing civilians in pursuit of military targets is unfortunate, terrorising civilians deliberately is evil.

FCB wrote:

Lol if Hamas did the same thing, you'd wouldn't be saying it's just a mistake. You'd be criticizing them.

Unlike Israel, Hamas has killed more soldiers than civilians during this war. Yet somehow, they are the ones who are terrorists and just want to kill civilians.

Hamas' wouldn't do the same thing, they don't require any justification for their terrorist acts.  Israel obviously isn't going to make up stories about someone being kidnapped so they can break a ceasefire that they wanted in the first place.

Hamas are responsible for every single death on both sides, and they delight in all of them.  The Israelis because they hate Jews, the Palestinians because in their world view they're on their way to paradise now and it's also great PR.  These are the people the Palestinians support.

I disagree. Whether Israel deliberately made up this story or if their intelligence is that poor, Israel benefits from this from a PR perspective (or at least they did). They have been getting bad PR lately and what better way to improve your image than to portray the enemy as someone who breaks a ceasefire after two hours by kidnapping and killing a soldier? Too bad (for the them) that the truth came out and their mistake was exposed. If they didn't intentionally make up the story, then they are irresponsible for initiating a conflict with someone who isn't responsible.

I wouldn't make such a strong statement. They don't hate Jewish people, just Zionists and Israel. In fact, they mention that Jews and Christians can coexist peacefully in their Charter. And your whole people support Hamas statement is misleading. First of all, the last elections were in 2006 (8 years ago). Opinions and people change. Second of all, they got less than 50% of the votes.

The facts are clear as day. Israel attacked a people on false evidence, initiated another attack based on false evidence, and have committed war crimes. I'd never imagine you supporting Hamas or the innocent Palestinian people. But, I find it odd that you actually support these actions by Israel, a racist and religious state.