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    Gaza conflict

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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:15 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:Bill Maher got sacked from ABC for his support of 9/11.
    Not true



    And he was right by the way.

    Glen Miller wrote:I don't like William Maher.

    That doesn't surprise me.
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    Post by Glen Miller Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:17 am

    Why not?
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:23 am

    Glen Miller wrote:Why not?
    He tells the truth about religion.
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    Post by Glen Miller Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:25 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    Glen Miller wrote:Why not?
    He tells the truth about religion.
    I like plenty of people who "tell the truth" as you see it.  I like reading Hitchens, Nietzsche, and ResurrectionRooney.  I cannot, however, tolerate William's smug smile.
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    Post by FCB Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:29 am

    Howard Stern is an idiot. His defense of Israel is that they're a democratic nation, the Jews suffered in the past, and they are the indigenous people of the land.

    1) They are not the indigenous people of the land. They mostly came from Europe and other parts of the world. The Arabs outnumbered the Jews by far before the creation of Israel.

    2) So what if the Jews suffered? It's not the Palestinian's fault. Why doesn't Germany give them a part of their land and they can form Israel over there? Why should the Palestinians have to suffer for it?

    3) Being a democratic nation doesn't excuse you to commit war crimes. USA is a democracy, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and excuse its actions.



    If Howard is right about one thing, is that America and Israel have similar beginnings. Coming over from Europe and killing the indigenous people to form their own country. So if you're anti-Israel, you're anti-America.
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    Post by FCB Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:41 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:1) None of the law mentioned is really relevant to whether it's self defence or not.  Terrorists are attacking them, they're responding, that's self defence.

    2) They keep voting for terrorists, they need to be kept an eye on.  Imagine if they were allowed to do whatever they wanted.

    3) Sounds like Hamas should stop firing rockets, take away Israel's main excuse

    4) Israel's attacks are to deter other attacks and cripple Hamas' ability to launch them.  Hamas' attacks are to create terror.  Good guys and bad guys.

    5) Hardly a debunking when it cites two examples of them using UN schools to store weapons.  Hamas should probably stop using terrorism and giving Israel an excuse.

    1) One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I remember Mandela being considered a terrorist. The truth is, Hamas is the one defending themselves (desperately I might add).

    2) Then they shouldn't go around claiming that they pulled out of Gaza and make it seem like poor little Israel left them alone while Gaza is still attacking them. Israel would have a good excuse if they let Palestinians have control over their own land and then deal with any attacks from Gaza.

    3) And bend over while they arrest their people, kill their people, and steal their land? I'd rather die fighting. We all saw what happens when Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel still starts the attacks.

    4) Israel creates terror too. Their motives are not to just weaken Hamas militarily, but to cause terror in the Palestinians so that they turn against Hamas. The opposite effect is happening though. Hamas is getting stronger because they are the victims and resisting.

    5) They use abandoned buildings. Israel has been accused by the UN of using Palestinian children as human shields. Where is your criticism of that?
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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Jul 30, 2014 4:58 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    Keyser Söze wrote:Bill Maher got sacked from ABC for his support of 9/11.
    Not true



    You say "not true" yet post a video that proves it's true  rofl 
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:02 am

    FCB wrote:Howard Stern is an idiot. His defense of Israel is that they're a democratic nation, the Jews suffered in the past, and they are the indigenous people of the land.

    1) They are not the indigenous people of the land. They mostly came from Europe and other parts of the world. The Arabs outnumbered the Jews by far before the creation of Israel.

    2) So what if the Jews suffered? It's not the Palestinian's fault. Why doesn't Germany give them a part of their land and they can form Israel over there? Why should the Palestinians have to suffer for it?

    3) Being a democratic nation doesn't excuse you to commit war crimes. USA is a democracy, but I'll be damned if I'm going to sit here and excuse its actions.



    If Howard is right about one thing, is that America and Israel have similar beginnings. Coming over from Europe and killing the indigenous people to form their own country. So if you're anti-Israel, you're anti-America.

    1) So what?  They were assigned land by the UN and expanded after they were attacked.

    2) You are some fucking idiot if you think the Jewish State should have
    been founded within the territory of a state which has just tried to exterminate the Jews altogether.  That is one of the most stupid things I have ever read.  Absolutely fucking mind-blowing.  Wow.  You should be ashamed for saying something so retarded.

    3) It certainly doesn't.

    FCB wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:1) None of the law mentioned is really relevant to whether it's self defence or not.  Terrorists are attacking them, they're responding, that's self defence.

    2) They keep voting for terrorists, they need to be kept an eye on.  Imagine if they were allowed to do whatever they wanted.

    3) Sounds like Hamas should stop firing rockets, take away Israel's main excuse

    4) Israel's attacks are to deter other attacks and cripple Hamas' ability to launch them.  Hamas' attacks are to create terror.  Good guys and bad guys.

    5) Hardly a debunking when it cites two examples of them using UN schools to store weapons.  Hamas should probably stop using terrorism and giving Israel an excuse.

    1) One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I remember Mandela being considered a terrorist. The truth is, Hamas is the one defending themselves (desperately I might add).

    2) Then they shouldn't go around claiming that they pulled out of Gaza and make it seem like poor little Israel left them alone while Gaza is still attacking them. Israel would have a good excuse if they let Palestinians have control over their own land and then deal with any attacks from Gaza.

    3) And bend over while they arrest their people, kill their people, and steal their land? I'd rather die fighting. We all saw what happens when Hamas stops firing rockets. Israel still starts the attacks.

    4) Israel creates terror too. Their motives are not to just weaken Hamas militarily, but to cause terror in the Palestinians so that they turn against Hamas. The opposite effect is happening though. Hamas is getting stronger because they are the victims and resisting.

    5) They use abandoned buildings. Israel has been accused by the UN of using Palestinian children as human shields. Where is your criticism of that?

    1) Mandela was a terrorist and I'm glad he's dead.  Hamas isn't defending itself from anything, Hamas is the aggressor.

    2) They do have the power over their own lands.  Israel needs to have some control in the region though given how aggressive and hateful the Palestinians are.

    3) Criminals should be arrested, terrorists should be killed and if stealing land is necessary for Israeli security then Israel should do it.  If Palestine abandoned terrorism then Israel would not do any of those things.

    4) Their motives are to kill terrorists and destroy their weapons.  Terror is just an unfortunate side effect, because of the reasons you mention.

    5) Are you saying that Hamas doesn't fire from residential neighbourhoods or use civilian buildings to house weapons of terror?  I condemn anyone who uses human shields, even rogue soldiers.  At least Israel does not do this as policy.


    Last edited by ResurrectionRooney on Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:13 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    Not true



    You say "not true" yet post a video that proves it's true  rofl 

    Saying it's not cowardly does not equate to support. If somebody is really angry with Brock Lesnar because he ended the Undertaker's undefeated streak and punches him in the face over it they're wrong to do it, they're committing a crime and they wouldn't have my support, but I'd say they're not cowardly.
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    Post by FCB Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:22 am

    My example of giving land to Jews in Germany, was just as an example to show that they could have gone anywhere. They were offered Uganda too, I believe.

    What power over their land are you talking about? Israel has air and naval control of Gaza. They limit their imports and exports. They even calculate the daily calories the people need so as to just barely starve them. They maintain a population registry of Gaza. You call that control over their land? That's basically a prison. You also have Egypt blocking the border on the other side.

    I fail to believe that Israel is not capable of making targeted attacks and reduce the civilian casualties.
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:35 am

    FCB wrote:My example of giving land to Jews in Germany, was just as an example to show that they could have gone anywhere. They were offered Uganda too, I believe.

    What power over their land are you talking about? Israel has air and naval control of Gaza. They limit their imports and exports. They even calculate the daily calories the people need so as to just barely starve them. They maintain a population registry of Gaza. You call that control over their land? That's basically a prison. You also have Egypt blocking the border on the other side.

    I fail to believe that Israel is not capable of making targeted attacks and reduce the civilian casualties.

    I still can't believe you think the Jews should have been given German land.  How do you think the Germans would have taken to that?  How many Jews do you think would have actually gone?  That's like saying a gang rape victim should move in with her attackers and only be allowed to wear mini-skirts while all the men are given Viagra in their food.

    Why the fuck would they go to Uganda?  A landlocked shit hole with no Jews in it and no historical Jewish connection.  Why is it OK to give them Ugandan land, but British controlled land in Palestine that the British no longer want isn't OK?  That is another completely ridiculous suggestion.  Have you started drinking?

    Air and naval control of Gaza is necessary because of all the terrorism.  Import control is also necessary to prevent rocket attacks as best as possible.  Calculating the daily calories people need is a good idea so they can give them enough aid to stop them from starving to death.  Painting that as a bad thing is ridiculous, do you have any idea how much aid Israel gives to these ingrates?  A population register is also a good idea given their terrorism problem.  

    Can't blame Egypt for blocking the border, I wouldn't want terrorists or terrorist sympathisers flooding into my country.

    Palestine is capable of reducing civilian casualties to zero if it wants to.  It doesn't.  It wants to terrorise Jews and ultimately exterminate Israel.
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    Post by FCB Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:40 am

    I don't even support Jews having their own land. They can assimilate into another country, but they can't just take over someone's land and say we're going to form our own country based on the Jewish race. If Palestinians were to leave the land and say go form their own country in Europe or take over Sinai, I wouldn't support that either. But what happened is hard to reverse, so I support a two state solution.

    You know what else Palestinians are capable of? Leaving and letting Israel just expand its territory. But nobody should actually expect that from them. They are fighting an occupation. As the occupier, Israel has more of a responsibility.
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 5:51 am

    FCB wrote:I don't even support Jews having their own land. They can assimilate into another country, but they can't just take over someone's land and say we're going to form our own country based on the Jewish race. If Palestinians were to leave the land and say go form their own country in Europe or take over Sinai, I wouldn't support that either. But what happened is hard to reverse, so I support a two state solution.

    You know what else Palestinians are capable of? Leaving and letting Israel just expand its territory. But nobody should actually expect that from them. They are fighting an occupation. As the occupier, Israel has more of a responsibility.

    They tried assimilating into other countries, it didn't work. You are making yourself look extremely stupid and ignorant here, but then again I support you're taking baby steps. Anything is an improvement from saying Jews should have taken over an area of Germany in 1945.

    They should fight it in a non-violent way. It would be more ethical and more successful.

    At this point I'd like to conduct a thought experiment to illustrate why I feel that Israel are the good guys in this situation and the Palestinians the bad guys.

    At the moment Israel has the power to wipe out the Palestinians, and all of it's enemies in the area. It opts not to do that and expends its money on defence systems and its own infrastructure, improving the lives of both its own citizens and the people of Palestine through aid to improve their situation. When it has to use military force, it uses the minimum possible to achieve its objectives, tries to avoid civilian casualties and uses a small fraction of the force available to it. It has a number of extremely powerful allies, while Palestine has none.

    If when we wake up tomorrow the situation is reversed, and Palestine somehow gains all of these military advantages over Israel, what do you think would happen?
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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:07 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    Keyser Söze wrote:

    You say "not true" yet post a video that proves it's true  rofl 

    Saying it's not cowardly does not equate to support.  If somebody is really angry with Brock Lesnar because he ended the Undertaker's undefeated streak and punches him in the face over it they're wrong to do it, they're committing a crime and they wouldn't have my support, but I'd say they're not cowardly.
    Equating punching a near 300 pound 6 feet professional wrestler to using a Boeing 767 to kill unarmed office staff  scratch 

    Bravery (whatever you call not being cowardly) is a positive word. He described the hijackers in a positive manner whilst criticised the US for killing terrorists, something you support.
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:18 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:

    Saying it's not cowardly does not equate to support.  If somebody is really angry with Brock Lesnar because he ended the Undertaker's undefeated streak and punches him in the face over it they're wrong to do it, they're committing a crime and they wouldn't have my support, but I'd say they're not cowardly.
    Equating punching a near 300 pound 6 feet professional wrestler to using a Boeing 767 to kill unarmed office staff  scratch 

    Bravery (whatever you call not being cowardly) is a positive word. He described the hijackers in a positive manner whilst criticised the US for killing terrorists, something you support.
    The point is that it's brave, but not positive. The difference between that and 9/11 is only a matter of degree - the negative consequences of 9/11 are more severe and the damage caused is a lot greater, but it's still something that's wrong but not cowardly.
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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:25 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    Keyser Söze wrote:
    Equating punching a near 300 pound 6 feet professional wrestler to using a Boeing 767 to kill unarmed office staff  scratch 

    Bravery (whatever you call not being cowardly) is a positive word. He described the hijackers in a positive manner whilst criticised the US for killing terrorists, something you support.
    The point is that it's brave, but not positive.  The difference between that and 9/11 is only a matter of degree - the negative consequences of 9/11 are more severe and the damage caused is a lot greater, but it's still something that's wrong but not cowardly.
    Being brave is positive. When have you ever heard people call rapists, murders and peodophiles brave?
    After I punch Lesnar I'll be around to face the repercussions, a painful beating that I'll feel and a criminal conviction. 9/11 hijackers died instantly on impact and likely felt nothing. According to their rhetoric they're supposedly relaxing in heaven with beautiful virgins.
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 6:45 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    The point is that it's brave, but not positive.  The difference between that and 9/11 is only a matter of degree - the negative consequences of 9/11 are more severe and the damage caused is a lot greater, but it's still something that's wrong but not cowardly.
    Being brave is positive. When have you ever heard people call rapists, murders and peodophiles brave?

    When Bill Maher said it about the 9/11 hijackers.  It's not always positive.  Germany soldiers in WWII were probably pretty brave, it doesn't mean they were right do to what they did.

    After I punch Lesnar I'll be around to face the repercussions, a painful beating that I'll feel and a criminal conviction. 9/11 hijackers died instantly on impact and likely felt nothing. According to their rhetoric they're supposedly relaxing in heaven with beautiful virgins.

    Impending death creates a massive degree of terror that they had to overcome, which is pretty much the definition of bravery.  This is regardless of any beliefs they might have had about what happens afterwards.  When a Christian jumps on a grenade to protect his squadmates people don't say "He wasn't brave, he was just being sensible".

    Actually it's just dawned on me what a fucking ridiculous conversation this is.  If you genuinely think Bill Maher supports religious nuts murdering civilians then you're not worth my time. If you're trolling, well done, you got a bite.
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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:05 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:Impending death creates a massive degree of terror that they had to overcome, which is pretty much the definition of bravery.  This is regardless of any beliefs they might have had about what happens afterwards.  When a Christian jumps on a grenade to protect his squadmates people don't say "He wasn't brave, he was just being sensible".
    I don't think you understand at all the mindset of these people if that's what you actually think.


    ResurrectionRooney wrote:Germany soldiers in WWII were probably pretty brave, it doesn't mean they were right do to what they did.
    Also, what German WWII soldiers are you referring to? The ones defending their country were absolutely right according to you.
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:14 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:Impending death creates a massive degree of terror that they had to overcome, which is pretty much the definition of bravery.  This is regardless of any beliefs they might have had about what happens afterwards.  When a Christian jumps on a grenade to protect his squadmates people don't say "He wasn't brave, he was just being sensible".
    I don't think you understand at all the mindset of these people if that's what you actually think.


    ResurrectionRooney wrote:Germany soldiers in WWII were probably pretty brave, it doesn't mean they were right do to what they did.
    Also, what German WWII soldiers are you referring to? The ones defending their country were absolutely right according to you.

    It's very difficult for anyone to understand their mindset reliably given that they are dead.

    When did I say that?
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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:33 am

    I don't know if you were being deliberately obtuse but I thought it was pretty clear I meant the mindset of religious zealots that seek to be martyrs.

    So is it only OK for Israel to defend its people from terror? No other country are allowed to do it?
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:45 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:I don't know if you were being deliberately obtuse but I thought it was pretty clear I meant the mindset of religious zealots that seek to be martyrs.

    I'd say it's very difficult to get into the mindset of a bloke sat on a plane about to fly it into a building. I imagine he'd have the same fear of death that all animals do, even if the rational part of his mind overcomes it based on the false pretence that he'll get into paradise. You might imagine otherwise.

    So is it only OK for Israel to defend its people from terror? No other country are allowed to do it?  

    It depends on the circumstances. It's not OK to defend a state which is implementing genocide and pursuing a hugely destructive war to expand its own territory. Ideally the German soldiers would have killed their leaders and defected to the other side. Of course this is not realistic, but it would absolutely have been the right thing to do.
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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Jul 30, 2014 7:55 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:It depends on the circumstances.  It's not OK to defend a state which is implementing genocide and pursuing a hugely destructive war to expand its own territory.  Ideally the German soldiers would have killed their leaders and defected to the other side. Of course this is not realistic, but it would absolutely have been the right thing to do.

    The Jews were terrorising the German population, the government had to take action. That's what you've said before.

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:It's not OK to pursue a hugely destructive war to expand its own territory.

    Before you've said land won in war was the correct way and totally OK. I'm paraphrasing to make it grammatically correct but in the comment above it seems you've changed your mind.
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    Post by FCB Wed Jul 30, 2014 8:47 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    FCB wrote:I don't even support Jews having their own land. They can assimilate into another country, but they can't just take over someone's land and say we're going to form our own country based on the Jewish race. If Palestinians were to leave the land and say go form their own country in Europe or take over Sinai, I wouldn't support that either. But what happened is hard to reverse, so I support a two state solution.

    You know what else Palestinians are capable of? Leaving and letting Israel just expand its territory. But nobody should actually expect that from them. They are fighting an occupation. As the occupier, Israel has more of a responsibility.

    They tried assimilating into other countries, it didn't work.  You are making yourself look extremely stupid and ignorant here, but then again I support you're taking baby steps.  Anything is an improvement from saying Jews should have taken over an area of Germany in 1945.

    They should fight it in a non-violent way.  It would be more ethical and more successful.

    At this point I'd like to conduct a thought experiment to illustrate why I feel that Israel are the good guys in this situation and the Palestinians the bad guys.

    At the moment Israel has the power to wipe out the Palestinians, and all of it's enemies in the area.  It opts not to do that and expends its money on defence systems and its own infrastructure, improving the lives of both its own citizens and the people of Palestine through aid to improve their situation.  When it has to use military force, it uses the minimum possible to achieve its objectives, tries to avoid civilian casualties and uses a small fraction of the force available to it.  It has a number of extremely powerful allies, while Palestine has none.

    If when we wake up tomorrow the situation is reversed, and Palestine somehow gains all of these military advantages over Israel, what do you think would happen?

    That's their fucking problem. Why should the Palestinians have to suffer because Jews can't get along with people?

    And to answer your question, Palestine might retaliate to all the years of oppression that they suffered. Maybe Israel is acting this way because of the shit they've been through in WWII. But if you want to know what Muslims would do if they had more power than Jews, just look at the Islamic empire in Andalusia or where the Jews fled to when they were persecuted by the Christians during the Spanish Inquisition.
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:16 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:It depends on the circumstances.  It's not OK to defend a state which is implementing genocide and pursuing a hugely destructive war to expand its own territory.  Ideally the German soldiers would have killed their leaders and defected to the other side. Of course this is not realistic, but it would absolutely have been the right thing to do.

    The Jews were terrorising the German population, the government had to take action. That's what you've said before.

    When?  Quote me?

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:It's not OK to pursue a hugely destructive war to expand its own territory.

    Before you've said land won in war was the correct way and totally OK. I'm paraphrasing to make it grammatically correct but in the comment above it seems you've changed your mind.

    If Poland had enacted a war of aggression against Germany to exterminate them and Germany had responded by expanding its territory for the sake of its own security then I wouldn't have a problem with it.  In the real world Germany were an aggressive expansionist power who wanted an Empire and attacked Poland to try and conquer it.  Israel only wanted a safe place for Jews to live without fear of extermination in accordance with the UN plan.  The Arabs rejected that and tried to exterminate them.

    FCB wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:

    They tried assimilating into other countries, it didn't work.  You are making yourself look extremely stupid and ignorant here, but then again I support you're taking baby steps.  Anything is an improvement from saying Jews should have taken over an area of Germany in 1945.

    They should fight it in a non-violent way.  It would be more ethical and more successful.

    At this point I'd like to conduct a thought experiment to illustrate why I feel that Israel are the good guys in this situation and the Palestinians the bad guys.

    At the moment Israel has the power to wipe out the Palestinians, and all of it's enemies in the area.  It opts not to do that and expends its money on defence systems and its own infrastructure, improving the lives of both its own citizens and the people of Palestine through aid to improve their situation.  When it has to use military force, it uses the minimum possible to achieve its objectives, tries to avoid civilian casualties and uses a small fraction of the force available to it.  It has a number of extremely powerful allies, while Palestine has none.

    If when we wake up tomorrow the situation is reversed, and Palestine somehow gains all of these military advantages over Israel, what do you think would happen?

    That's their fucking problem. Why should the Palestinians have to suffer because Jews can't get along with people?

    And to answer your question, Palestine might retaliate to all the years of oppression that they suffered. Maybe Israel is acting this way because of the shit they've been through in WWII. But if you want to know what Muslims would do if they had more power than Jews, just look at the Islamic empire in Andalusia or where the Jews fled to when they were persecuted by the Christians during the Spanish Inquisition.

    Because Jews can't get along with people?  Are you blaming the Holocaust on the Jews now?  OMG I don't often use emoticons but that warrants it!

    They "might" retaliate?  What form would this retaliation take?  Strongly worded condemnation of Israel?  Sanctions?  Be more specific, please tell me what you think would happen.

    Israel acts the way it does because from the moment it existed Muslims, primarily Arabs, have been trying to destroy it and denying its right to exist.  They have to act in the way they do to protect their security.  If Palestine adjusted their attitude, moved away from the policies of evil men like Hitler and Osama Bin Laden and instead towards the policies and ideals of great men like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jesus Christ and me then Israel would have no reason to do bad things they do.

    I don't presume that all Muslims are the same, so what happened in Andalusia isn't really relevant to me.

    Are there any famous highly peaceful Muslims around by the way?  When I was naming great men of peace I could only think of ones from different, or no religions.  Whose example could the Palestinians be expected to follow?
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    Post by FCB Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:13 pm

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    FCB wrote:

    That's their fucking problem. Why should the Palestinians have to suffer because Jews can't get along with people?

    And to answer your question, Palestine might retaliate to all the years of oppression that they suffered. Maybe Israel is acting this way because of the shit they've been through in WWII. But if you want to know what Muslims would do if they had more power than Jews, just look at the Islamic empire in Andalusia or where the Jews fled to when they were persecuted by the Christians during the Spanish Inquisition.

    Because Jews can't get along with people?  Are you blaming the Holocaust on the Jews now?  OMG I don't often use emoticons but that warrants it!

    They "might" retaliate?  What form would this retaliation take?  Strongly worded condemnation of Israel?  Sanctions?  Be more specific, please tell me what you think would happen.

    Israel acts the way it does because from the moment it existed Muslims, primarily Arabs, have been trying to destroy it and denying its right to exist.  They have to act in the way they do to protect their security.  If Palestine adjusted their attitude, moved away from the policies of evil men like Hitler and Osama Bin Laden and instead towards the policies and ideals of great men like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jesus Christ and me then Israel would have no reason to do bad things they do.

    I don't presume that all Muslims are the same, so what happened in Andalusia isn't really relevant to me.

    Are there any famous highly peaceful Muslims around by the way?  When I was naming great men of peace I could only think of ones from different, or no religions.  Whose example could the Palestinians be expected to follow?

    I didn't blame the Holocaust on the Jews, don't twist my words. I simply said that the Palestinians shouldn't have to deal with or suffer because of something between the Jews and Europeans.

    I honestly don't know how they would retaliate. They surely wouldn't exterminate the Jews if that's what you're getting at. But I can easily see them expanding the Palestinians territories. I can see sanctions being used (different from blockading the territories).

    Amr Khaled comes to mind as a current Muslim role model. I respect Mohamed ElBaradei when it comes to matters of peace and patience, although I disagreed with him politically at times.
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:13 pm

    FCB wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:

    Because Jews can't get along with people?  Are you blaming the Holocaust on the Jews now?  OMG I don't often use emoticons but that warrants it!

    They "might" retaliate?  What form would this retaliation take?  Strongly worded condemnation of Israel?  Sanctions?  Be more specific, please tell me what you think would happen.

    Israel acts the way it does because from the moment it existed Muslims, primarily Arabs, have been trying to destroy it and denying its right to exist.  They have to act in the way they do to protect their security.  If Palestine adjusted their attitude, moved away from the policies of evil men like Hitler and Osama Bin Laden and instead towards the policies and ideals of great men like Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Jesus Christ and me then Israel would have no reason to do bad things they do.

    I don't presume that all Muslims are the same, so what happened in Andalusia isn't really relevant to me.

    Are there any famous highly peaceful Muslims around by the way?  When I was naming great men of peace I could only think of ones from different, or no religions.  Whose example could the Palestinians be expected to follow?

    I didn't blame the Holocaust on the Jews, don't twist my words. I simply said that the Palestinians shouldn't have to deal with or suffer because of something between the Jews and Europeans.

    I honestly don't know how they would retaliate. They surely wouldn't exterminate the Jews if that's what you're getting at. But I can easily see them expanding the Palestinians territories. I can see sanctions being used (different from blockading the territories).

    Amr Khaled comes to mind as a current Muslim role model. I respect Mohamed ElBaradei when it comes to matters of peace and patience, although I disagreed with him politically at times.

    You said the Jews couldn't get along with people. That sounds a lot like victim blaming to me. You don't seem to have much sympathy for a people who have come under the most horrific attack.

    Do you think that the state of Israel would still exist, say, a year after after the switch in power?

    I've never heard of those nobodies, but if they promote peace and non-violent resistance like me, MLK, Jesus Christ and Ghandi do and did then that's who the Palestinians should follow.
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    Post by FCB Wed Jul 30, 2014 1:59 pm

    It was a horrific attack and treatment of not only Jews, but other people. That will never excuse what they're doing now though.

    After a year, yes. I honestly believe that if a proper peace agreement is formed between Israel and Palestinian, there will be lasting peace. Both people just want to have their own homeland and live in peace. There are a few extremists on both sides that want to eliminate each other and take all the land.

    They're pretty famous actually. Amr Khaled is a famous religious person in the Middle East and was voted in Time's 100 most influential people. Mohamed ElBaradei is a former Nobel Peace prize winner, former head of the IAEA, former Egyptian presidential candidate and former Egyptian vice-president.
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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Jul 30, 2014 9:35 pm

    FCB wrote:Amr Khaled comes to mind as a current Muslim role model.

    I like him, but I think it's a sad state of affairs that only conservative muslims are seen as "good".
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    Post by vel Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:06 pm

    RR being savaged
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Wed Jul 30, 2014 10:11 pm

    FCB wrote:It was a horrific attack and treatment of not only Jews, but other people. That will never excuse what they're doing now though.

    After a year, yes. I honestly believe that if a proper peace agreement is formed between Israel and Palestinian, there will be lasting peace. Both people just want to have their own homeland and live in peace. There are a few extremists on both sides that want to eliminate each other and take all the land.

    They're pretty famous actually. Amr Khaled is a famous religious person in the Middle East and was voted in Time's 100 most influential people. Mohamed ElBaradei is a former Nobel Peace prize winner, former head of the IAEA, former Egyptian presidential candidate and former Egyptian vice-president.

    Don't you think the Arab attack in 1947 was an utter disgrace considering what they had been through already, and how they had been invited to stay in that land by the people who it belonged to?  I can excuse a lot of what people do when they're constantly acting under the threat of extermination.

    Where do you think the Jews should have gone after the holocaust by the way?

    That is total shit and you know it.  60% of Palestinians want to eliminate Israel within five years as things stand, if they had the capability to do it immediately it would be gone in a couple of weeks.  A few extremists, fuck me. Israel deserves a lot of credit for not wiping them out entirely.

    Most people would have never heard of them, but thanks for the names.

    Keyser Söze wrote:
    FCB wrote:Amr Khaled comes to mind as a current Muslim role model.

    I like him, but I think it's a sad state of affairs that only conservative muslims are seen as "good".
    You're following a 1500 year old religion based on words in a book that claim to be inerrant, conservatism is part of the package.

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