How haven't you stagnated? 
+7
Keyser Söze
Glen Miller
Scouser_Dave
Novi
Zzonked
Scott_LFC
ResurrectionRooney
11 posters
Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°31
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 12:29 am
Keyser Söze-
- Posts : 3515
- Post n°32
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Keyser Söze Wed May 21, 2014 12:32 am
We won the FA Cup. Stagnation over.
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°33
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 12:35 am
I didn't know that the FA Cup was part of the Premier League.
Theo Filippo-
- Formerly known as : Filippo Inzaghi
Posts : 21636
Age : 30
- Post n°34
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Theo Filippo Wed May 21, 2014 12:39 am
Points total's improved every year and relative to the champions points total we've finished closer and we've added a trophy. Unless you want to be a simpleton and go 'lol 4th every year so no improvement' then I don't think there's really a strong case to be made for stagnation.
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°35
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 12:55 am
Theo Filippo wrote:Points total's improved every year and relative to the champions points total we've finished closer and we've added a trophy. Unless you want to be a simpleton and go 'lol 4th every year so no improvement' then I don't think there's really a strong case to be made for stagnation.
The case of Arsenal finishing 4th every season is as close as you can get to a definition of stagnation in the Premier League. You may be improving your points total, but that's in direct correlation to the teams above and below you improving their points total, also, which makes it redundant.
It's actually hilarious how Liverpool, who were dragged down to mid-table after the 2008/9 season, have actually come closer to winning the League than Arsenal, who, every season, say they're title contenders. You haven't even finished 2nd since the season after you won the League in 2004.
2004/5 - 2nd
2005/6 - 4th
2006/7 - 4th
2007/8 -3rd
2008/9 - 4th
2009/10 - 3rd
2010/11 - 4th
2011/12 - 3rd
2012/13 - 4th
2013/14 - 4th
That is pure stagnation.
In that time, you've won the FA Cup twice, been in 2 League Cup finals and 1 European Cup final.
Trophies: 2
Finals: 5
Compare that to our European Cup, Super Cup, FA Cup, League Cup, another European Cup final, another Super Cup final, another FA Cup final, a Club World Cup final and another 2 League Cup finals.
Trophies: 4
Finals: 10
Just looking at that, straight away, it becomes apparent who the better Club is. Even in more recent times.
The only thing you have over us, is consistent top 4 finishes. That's literally it.
Last edited by Scott_LFC on Wed May 21, 2014 1:17 am; edited 1 time in total
ResurrectionRooney-
- Posts : 17681
Supports : United
- Post n°36
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by ResurrectionRooney Wed May 21, 2014 1:01 am
Why don't you post Liverpool's League finishes to make it a more accurate comparison?
Keyser Söze-
- Posts : 3515
- Post n°37
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Keyser Söze Wed May 21, 2014 1:06 am
As if you counted the trophies you won as other finals but didn't do that for our FA Cups Is it really that important to you?
Is it really that important to you?
Keyser Söze-
- Posts : 3515
- Post n°38
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Keyser Söze Wed May 21, 2014 1:09 am
ResurrectionRooney wrote:Why don't you post Liverpool's League finishes to make it a more accurate comparison?
According to this post he's only accounting the PL
Scott_LFC wrote: didn't know that the FA Cup was part of the Premier League
Yet he's listed all of Liverpool's achievements apart from their dismal PL record.
Theo Filippo-
- Formerly known as : Filippo Inzaghi
Posts : 21636
Age : 30
- Post n°39
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Theo Filippo Wed May 21, 2014 1:16 am
I don't even understand what point you were trying to make there. I'm talking about since we've sold Fabregas and co.
"You may be improving your points total, but that's in direct correlation to the teams above and below you improving their points total, also, which makes it redundant."
In 11/12 we were 19 points off first, this year we finished 7 points off first, it's not that hard to grasp.. unless you are Scott.
"You may be improving your points total, but that's in direct correlation to the teams above and below you improving their points total, also, which makes it redundant."
In 11/12 we were 19 points off first, this year we finished 7 points off first, it's not that hard to grasp.. unless you are Scott.
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°40
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 1:18 am
Keyser Söze wrote:As if you counted the trophies you won as other finals but didn't do that for our FA Cups
What are you talking about?
Keyser Söze-
- Posts : 3515
- Post n°41
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Keyser Söze Wed May 21, 2014 1:21 am
You know what I was talking about, as shown by the fact you edited your post 23mins later
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°42
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 1:22 am
Keyser Söze wrote:You know what I was talking about, as shown by the fact you edited your post 23mins later
The only thing I have changed is the fact I added in the number of cups and finals underneath both teams. I haven't changed anything else, see for yourself.
I'm still not sure what you mean, anyway.
Zzonked-
- Posts : 24290
Age : 32
- Post n°43
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Zzonked Wed May 21, 2014 1:25 am
Keyser Söze wrote:Did you do your Masters straight away after of University, Zzonked?
Yeah, I'm nearly done now too. Just got to finish a dissertation by September.
Life without someone telling me exactly what to do feels scary.
Theo Filippo-
- Formerly known as : Filippo Inzaghi
Posts : 21636
Age : 30
- Post n°44
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Theo Filippo Wed May 21, 2014 1:25 am
I thought it was pretty funny that Scott had to go all the way back to 2005 to come up with a biased attempt of proving that Liverpool have been better in "recent times". 
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°45
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 1:27 am
Theo Filippo wrote:I thought it was pretty funny that Scott had to go all the way back to 2005 to come up with a biased attempt of proving that Liverpool have been better in "recent times".
I was going back to Arsenal's most recent 2nd place finish and previous trophy prior to your recent FA Cup win.
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°46
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 1:44 am
I seem to have made some mistakes in my previous one. Here's an updated version.
Since 2004/5
Arsenal
2004/5 - 2nd
2005/6 - 4th
2006/7 - 4th
2007/8 -3rd
2008/9 - 4th
2009/10 - 3rd
2010/11 - 4th
2011/12 - 3rd
2012/13 - 4th
2013/14 - 4th
Trophies: FA Cup x2
Finals: FA Cup x2, League Cup x2, European Cup
Total trophies: 2
Total finals: 5
Liverpool
2004/5 - 5th
2005/6 - 3rd
2006/7 - 3rd
2007/8 - 4th
2008/9 - 2nd
2009/10 - 7th
2010/11 - 6th
2011/12 - 8th
2012/13 - 7th
2013/14 - 2nd
Trophies: European Cup, Super Cup, FA Cup, League Cup
Finals: European Cup x2, Super Cup, FA Cup x2, League Cup x3, Club World Cup
Total trophies: 4
Total finals: 9
I don't know how anyone can say Arsenal have been the better Club, to be honest. Yeah, okay, we went through a bad spell in the League, but we had crippling owners and Roy Hodgson/Kenny Dalglish during that time, whilst Arsenal had stability.
The fact remains, we've challenged for the League twice in that time. Arsenal only once, despite saying every year that they are title contenders. We've wiped the floor with them when it comes to Cups and finals too.
Since 2004/5
Arsenal
2004/5 - 2nd
2005/6 - 4th
2006/7 - 4th
2007/8 -3rd
2008/9 - 4th
2009/10 - 3rd
2010/11 - 4th
2011/12 - 3rd
2012/13 - 4th
2013/14 - 4th
Trophies: FA Cup x2
Finals: FA Cup x2, League Cup x2, European Cup
Total trophies: 2
Total finals: 5
Liverpool
2004/5 - 5th
2005/6 - 3rd
2006/7 - 3rd
2007/8 - 4th
2008/9 - 2nd
2009/10 - 7th
2010/11 - 6th
2011/12 - 8th
2012/13 - 7th
2013/14 - 2nd
Trophies: European Cup, Super Cup, FA Cup, League Cup
Finals: European Cup x2, Super Cup, FA Cup x2, League Cup x3, Club World Cup
Total trophies: 4
Total finals: 9
I don't know how anyone can say Arsenal have been the better Club, to be honest. Yeah, okay, we went through a bad spell in the League, but we had crippling owners and Roy Hodgson/Kenny Dalglish during that time, whilst Arsenal had stability.
The fact remains, we've challenged for the League twice in that time. Arsenal only once, despite saying every year that they are title contenders. We've wiped the floor with them when it comes to Cups and finals too.
Last edited by Scott_LFC on Wed May 21, 2014 1:48 am; edited 1 time in total
ResurrectionRooney-
- Posts : 17681
Supports : United
- Post n°47
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by ResurrectionRooney Wed May 21, 2014 1:48 am
According to the League positions, both Liverpool and Arsenal are on a downward trend since 2004/05. Arsenal's is significantly less severe, although it may seem otherwise because their performances are very stable whereas Liverpool's are incredibly erratic. This can be proven with charts.
Theo Filippo-
- Formerly known as : Filippo Inzaghi
Posts : 21636
Age : 30
- Post n°48
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Theo Filippo Wed May 21, 2014 1:51 am
Cliffs:
-Mentions Liverpool's owners but fails to mention Arsenal's stadium debt, we have better stability (Or stability unlike Liverpool) because we have better management.
-By Scott's biased definition of a title challenge you have to finished 2nd to challenge for the title.
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-The super cup counts as a legitimate final despite it being a consequence of winning a European competition
-Mentions Liverpool's owners but fails to mention Arsenal's stadium debt, we have better stability (Or stability unlike Liverpool) because we have better management.
-By Scott's biased definition of a title challenge you have to finished 2nd to challenge for the title.
-
-The super cup counts as a legitimate final despite it being a consequence of winning a European competition
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°49
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 1:52 am
Arsenal fans haven't experienced that
Keyser Söze-
- Posts : 3515
- Post n°50
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Keyser Söze Wed May 21, 2014 1:57 am
What if you compare the two since Liverpool last won the League?
Liverpool :11
Arsenal: 12
Liverpool's is diluted with 4 League Cups and 2 Super Cups
What is far more important than this pointless history is that Arsenal are currently more successful than Liverpool.
Liverpool :11
Arsenal: 12
Liverpool's is diluted with 4 League Cups and 2 Super Cups
What is far more important than this pointless history is that Arsenal are currently more successful than Liverpool.
ResurrectionRooney-
- Posts : 17681
Supports : United
- Post n°51
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by ResurrectionRooney Wed May 21, 2014 2:05 am
League performance by position since 2004/05.
Liverpool's claims to be "on the up" look even more ridiculous when you look at this chart. This season looks like a normal continuation in a series of dizzying peaks and abysmal troughs that they've spent the last decade experiencing.
Liverpool's claims to be "on the up" look even more ridiculous when you look at this chart. This season looks like a normal continuation in a series of dizzying peaks and abysmal troughs that they've spent the last decade experiencing.
Zzonked-
- Posts : 24290
Age : 32
- Post n°52
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Zzonked Wed May 21, 2014 4:51 am
So how about that van Gaal huh?
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°53
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 4:58 am
ResurrectionRooney wrote:League performance by position since 2004/05.
Liverpool's claims to be "on the up" look even more ridiculous when you look at this chart. This season looks like a normal continuation in a series of dizzying peaks and abysmal troughs that they've spent the last decade experiencing.
Shows the stagnation of Arsenal, which was the original point.
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°54
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 4:59 am
Keyser Söze wrote:What if you compare the two since Liverpool last won the League?
Liverpool :11
Arsenal: 12
Liverpool's is diluted with 4 League Cups and 2 Super Cups
What is far more important than this pointless history is that Arsenal are currently more successful than Liverpool.
European Cup > all. You'll probably never witness Arsenal win a big trophy
As for currently more successful. You're also currently more successful than Real Madrid, Chelsea, Man United, Barcelona, etc.
ResurrectionRooney-
- Posts : 17681
Supports : United
- Post n°55
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by ResurrectionRooney Wed May 21, 2014 5:17 am
Scott_LFC wrote:ResurrectionRooney wrote:League performance by position since 2004/05.
Liverpool's claims to be "on the up" look even more ridiculous when you look at this chart. This season looks like a normal continuation in a series of dizzying peaks and abysmal troughs that they've spent the last decade experiencing.
Shows the stagnation of Arsenal, which was the original point.
Stagnate has a lot of negative connotations, they've remained stable while paying off their debts and building substantially for the future. Stability, albeit in very slow decline, is better than being wildly erratic but actually in faster decline.
Scott_LFC wrote:As for currently more successful. You're also currently more successful than Real Madrid, Chelsea, Man United, Barcelona, etc.
Tied at best.
We had to beat the FA Cup Holders to win that trophy, Arsenal had to beat a team who have never won anything in all of history, while Barcelona had to beat Atletico Madrid.
Scott_LFC-
- Posts : 3237
- Post n°56
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scott_LFC Wed May 21, 2014 5:23 am
ResurrectionRooney wrote:Scott_LFC wrote:
Shows the stagnation of Arsenal, which was the original point.
Stagnate has a lot of negative connotations, they've remained stable while paying off their debts and building substantially for the future. Stability, albeit in very slow decline, is better than being wildly erratic but actually in faster decline.Scott_LFC wrote:As for currently more successful. You're also currently more successful than Real Madrid, Chelsea, Man United, Barcelona, etc.
Tied at best.
We had to beat the FA Cup Holders to win that trophy, Arsenal had to beat a team who have never won anything in all of history, while Barcelona had to beat Atletico Madrid.
Fuck off is it tied with Man United
SBSP-
- Posts : 50010
- Post n°57
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by SBSP Wed May 21, 2014 5:40 am
I heard he once showed his balls to the Bayern squad.Zzonked wrote:So how about that van Gaal huh?
Keyser Söze-
- Posts : 3515
- Post n°58
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Keyser Söze Wed May 21, 2014 5:53 am
You forgot MadridResurrectionRooney wrote:Scott_LFC wrote:
Shows the stagnation of Arsenal, which was the original point.
Stagnate has a lot of negative connotations, they've remained stable while paying off their debts and building substantially for the future. Stability, albeit in very slow decline, is better than being wildly erratic but actually in faster decline.Scott_LFC wrote:As for currently more successful. You're also currently more successful than Real Madrid, Chelsea, Man United, Barcelona, etc.
Tied at best.
We had to beat the FA Cup Holders to win that trophy, Arsenal had to beat a team who have never won anything in all of history, while Barcelona had to beat Atletico Madrid.
Keyser Söze-
- Posts : 3515
- Post n°59
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Keyser Söze Wed May 21, 2014 5:57 am
Scott_LFC wrote:Keyser Söze wrote:What if you compare the two since Liverpool last won the League?
Liverpool :11
Arsenal: 12
Liverpool's is diluted with 4 League Cups and 2 Super Cups
What is far more important than this pointless history is that Arsenal are currently more successful than Liverpool.
European Cup > all. You'll probably never witness Arsenal win a big trophy
As for currently more successful. You're also currently more successful than Real Madrid, Chelsea, Man United, Barcelona, etc.
Unbeaten PL season > European Cup > all. Scrub teams have won a "European Cup", it's only 13 games. Only one team has gone an entire PL season unbeaten.
Scouser_Dave-
- Posts : 7498
- Post n°60
Re: Van Gaal appointed United manager, Giggs retires (Confirmed)
by Scouser_Dave Wed May 21, 2014 6:05 am
Keyser Söze wrote:Scott_LFC wrote:
European Cup > all. You'll probably never witness Arsenal win a big trophy
As for currently more successful. You're also currently more successful than Real Madrid, Chelsea, Man United, Barcelona, etc.
Unbeaten PL season > European Cup > all. Scrub teams have won a "European Cup", it's only 13 games. Only one team has gone an entire PL season unbeaten.
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