The Atheist Thread

Shut the fuck up, man.

I don't think there's a religion out there that believes God is unjust.

What I mean is, alot of religious people would not say to you, "I hope you go to Hell when you die", even though that is what they believe will happen. Im wondering if their belief in you going to Hell when you die is as morally repugnant to RR as someone who takes pleasure in the concept of people suffering in Hell.

I hope you realize I was joking earlier. I don't take pleasure in the concept of people suffering in Hell. Well maybe instinctively I do if the person was awful during their life (i.e. mass murderer or rapist). If they're still alive, I hope they repent though.

FCB wrote:I hope you realize I was joking earlier. I don't take pleasure in the concept of people suffering in Hell. Well maybe instinctively I do if the person was awful during their life (i.e. mass murderer or rapist). If they're still alive, I hope they repent though.

I know, but you believe I deserve it which is just as bad.

Sean wrote:

FCB wrote:I hope you realize I was joking earlier. I don't take pleasure in the concept of people suffering in Hell. Well maybe instinctively I do if the person was awful during their life (i.e. mass murderer or rapist). If they're still alive, I hope they repent though.

I know, but you believe I deserve it which is just as bad.

That's not really true. It's hard for me to put this into words, but basically I can't say what you deserve. It's got nothing to do with me.

Sean wrote:That brings up a good question I wanted to ask you RR.

Do you think a belief can tarnish someone's character, from a moral standpoint? So say like Ahly he believes if you are a non-believer you deserve to suffer for eternity in Hell, now obviously that is a despicable belief, but if someone simply believes, if you are a non-believer then God will send you to Hell (regardless if its just or not) is it the same thing?

Yes, but in the example you give I would say no, because the latter isn't a moral issue, it's a question of fact. Saying there is some being that sends people to suffer terribly for something so incredibly arbitrary and random as believing in him or not then believing in him makes you either right or wrong factually but it says nothing morally. It's the same as saying that you believe Madeliene McCann isn't living a happy life at this moment in time, you might be right, you might be wrong and one state of affairs is obviously preferable to the other the but it says nothing morally.

It becomes a moral issue when people believe things morally about it. If somebody believes in the being mentioned earlier and also believes that that being is morally infallible, the source of all ethics and should be worshipped, or that Maddie having horrible things done to her is a morally good thing then it is a serious stain on their character. It's the belief about the moral aspect of it that is a stain on their character, everyone has the right to be wrong on facts but some moral stances are totally despicable.

I do sometimes wonder how many people read these holy texts and realise what a monster the God they believe in is, but continue to worship it and never speak out because of fear of what will happen to them in the afterlife. If I believed in the facts of the Bible or Koran I would openly profess my faith in God and his doodness and try to convert as many people as I could to protect them and hopefully myself from this monster, even though I would feel in myself that he was evil.

SBSP wrote:

Sean wrote:

I know, but you believe I deserve it which is just as bad.

That's not really true. It's hard for me to put this into words, but basically I can't say what you deserve. It's got nothing to do with me.

Pretty simple equation this, SBSP

Do you believe God is just?
Do you believe that God will send nonbelievers to hell or allow them to go to hell?

If the answer to both of these is yes then you believe it's just that Sean and I will go to Hell, whether it's your place to say it or not.

If you don't believe that our eternal suffering as punishment for being wrong is just (RR hint:It isn't), or even have the slightest doubt about it, then you need to change your answer to at least one of the above questions if you want to remain consistent.

Sean wrote:

FCB wrote:I hope you realize I was joking earlier. I don't take pleasure in the concept of people suffering in Hell. Well maybe instinctively I do if the person was awful during their life (i.e. mass murderer or rapist). If they're still alive, I hope they repent though.

I know, but you believe I deserve it which is just as bad.

If you went up to someone much stronger and larger than you and continually insulted him, you'd probably get punched in the face. I wouldn't be laughing at you with your bloody face or cheering the guy on while he's punching you. But if you came to me afterwards and said, did I deserve this? I would say you should have seen it coming. Except in this case, God doesn't keep you guessing. He's clearly stated the punishment for people like you and is giving you a chance to repent.

I never understood why non-Muslims get insulted by this though. If someone told me I'd burn in Hell for being a Muslim, I wouldn't be bothered because I don't believe them. I can see how if I was rubbing it on your face like the Westboro Baptist Church, but just believing in it shouldn't bother you.

FCB wrote:

Sean wrote:

I know, but you believe I deserve it which is just as bad.

If you went up to someone much stronger and larger than you and continually insulted him, you'd probably get punched in the face. I wouldn't be laughing at you with your bloody face or cheering the guy on while he's punching you. But if you came to me afterwards and said, did I deserve this? I would say you should have seen it coming. Except in this case, God doesn't keep you guessing. He's clearly stated the punishment for people like you and is giving you a chance to repent.

I never understood why non-Muslims get insulted by this though. If someone told me I'd burn in Hell for being a Muslim, I wouldn't be bothered because I don't believe them. I can see how if I was rubbing it on your face like the Westboro Baptist Church, but just believing in it shouldn't bother you.

For the first point you're placing the agency on me, when in reality it isn't. I did not ask to be created, nor did I ask to be created in such a way that I would value scientific evidence over religious evidence. Also, Religious doctrine, Bible, Qu'aran, whatever does not state "those who don't believe in God and be a dick about it are going to Hell", they plainly state that simple non belief is enough to get sent to Hell. The analogy is more if I stood and completely ignored the bigger stronger guy and then he came over and hit me for not paying attention to him. Is that just?

For the second part, it's because it's a massive slippery slope. First of all it gives you a moral superiority over me, even if you don't chose to act upon it it still creates a dangerous position. This can be especially relevant in any form of government with Religious influences (which is probably most of them).

Well you did ask to be created, that's a whole different topic though. And by not believing in God, it is like you are insulting him.

Religion wasn't the first nor last form of persecution. The problem isn't with religion just as the problem isn't with your skin color. It's about how people abuse their powers.

Well you did ask to be created

What an absurd statement.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Well you did ask to be created

What an absurd statement.

You can think it's an absurd statement all you want, doesn't make it false. If on the Day of Judgement God proves to you that you had a choice and you chose to be a human with free will, will you have an excuse?

Why don't you just let this die.

Because I forgot to reply to it at first.

Anyway, anyone is free to discuss the topic in this thread. It's not in your face.

FCB wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

What an absurd statement.

You can think it's an absurd statement all you want, doesn't make it false. If on the Day of Judgement God proves to you that you had a choice and you chose to be a human with free will, will you have an excuse?

The devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. All those who reject Jesus Christ are in bondage to satan and sin. All have sinned and broken God's moral Law. The wages of sin is death and being cast into hell. Freedom is only found in Jesus Christ who grants forgiveness of sins and eternal life to those who repent and put their faith in his redeeming work on the cross. Dont continue to be a slave of satan for his part is in the lake of fire for eternity which will be yours as well for your sins unless you repent..

FCB wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

What an absurd statement.

You can think it's an absurd statement all you want, doesn't make it false. If on the Day of Judgement God proves to you that you had a choice and you chose to be a human with free will, will you have an excuse?

It is a false statement by it's very nature. It's like saying 2+2 = 27. I cannot ask to be created without first existing, if I do anything then that means I already exist. You can say "You did ask not to be destroyed immediately after being created", it's a statement with no evidence to back it up, but at least it's possible.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

FCB wrote:

You can think it's an absurd statement all you want, doesn't make it false. If on the Day of Judgement God proves to you that you had a choice and you chose to be a human with free will, will you have an excuse?

It is a false statement by it's very nature.  It's like saying 2+2 = 27.  I cannot ask to be created without first existing, if I do anything then that means I already exist.  You can say "You did ask not to be destroyed immediately after being created", it's a statement with no evidence to back it up, but at least it's possible.

Let me reword that. You were asked if you wanted to be a creation with free will or a creation that had no free will. You chose to be a creation with free will.

FCB wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

It is a false statement by it's very nature.  It's like saying 2+2 = 27.  I cannot ask to be created without first existing, if I do anything then that means I already exist.  You can say "You did ask not to be destroyed immediately after being created", it's a statement with no evidence to back it up, but at least it's possible.

Let me reword that. You were asked if you wanted to be a creation with free will or a creation that had no free will. You chose to be a creation with free will.

How the fuck could I make a choice without already having free will? You're talking shit.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

FCB wrote:

Let me reword that. You were asked if you wanted to be a creation with free will or a creation that had no free will. You chose to be a creation with free will.

How the fuck could I make a choice without already having free will?  You're talking shit.

Because at that time you had free will. You were asked what kind of life you wanted to live and the rewards and punishments associated with it.

FCB wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

How the fuck could I make a choice without already having free will?  You're talking shit.

Because at that time you had free will. You were asked what kind of life you wanted to live and the rewards and punishments associated with it.

Did God create me, knowing what I was going to choose?

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

FCB wrote:

Because at that time you had free will. You were asked what kind of life you wanted to live and the rewards and punishments associated with it.

Did God create me, knowing what I was going to choose?

He knew what you were going to choose (because he knows everything that will happen), but it was your choice.

Creating a thing knowing what it is going to do, then saying that the choices it makes are it's own responsibility is obvious nonsense. If I made the choice I did because of the qualities this being and principles this being created when it was creating me and I could not have acted any other way then there is no choice at all.

That aside, don't you think it's unfair to ask such an incredibly consequential question to an infant?

You could have acted another way. You had the choice to believe or not believe. Don't blame your foolishness or your thick head on God. You have a brain and feelings just like I do.

Who said you were an infant when asked?

FCB wrote:You could have acted another way. You had the choice to believe or not believe. Don't blame your foolishness or your thick head on God. You have a brain and feelings just like I do.

Who said you were an infant when asked?

Er...no I didn't, because I had just been created by God as he'd chosen to create me, knowing what I would do. If my actions are predictable, already known, then there is no genuine choice and the responsibility is on the person who did have a choice. How could I have chosen any differently when God already knew what I would do? Can God be wrong?

Well it was before childhood, wasn't it? Whenever it was I would have been at an extremely early stage of my intellectual development.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

FCB wrote:You could have acted another way. You had the choice to believe or not believe. Don't blame your foolishness or your thick head on God. You have a brain and feelings just like I do.

Who said you were an infant when asked?

Er...no I didn't, because I had just been created by God as he'd chosen to create me, knowing what I would do.  If my actions are predictable, already known, then there is no genuine choice and the responsibility is on the person who did have a choice.  How could I have chosen any differently when God already knew what I would do?  Can God be wrong?

Well it was before childhood, wasn't it?  Whenever it was I would have been at an extremely early stage of my intellectual development.

You have to realize the difference between knowing the future and choosing the future. The choice was on you. But because God has the knowledge of the future, he knows what you will choose.

It wasn't a stage of any development.

This argument has just devolved into something silly now

It's an important factor though and counters your objection. You claim that you had no choice, but I'm saying you did. If you accept that you have a choice, you can't blame God anymore.

FCB wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:

Er...no I didn't, because I had just been created by God as he'd chosen to create me, knowing what I would do.  If my actions are predictable, already known, then there is no genuine choice and the responsibility is on the person who did have a choice.  How could I have chosen any differently when God already knew what I would do?  Can God be wrong?

Well it was before childhood, wasn't it?  Whenever it was I would have been at an extremely early stage of my intellectual development.

You have to realize the difference between knowing the future and choosing the future. The choice was on you. But because God has the knowledge of the future, he knows what you will choose.

It wasn't a stage of any development.

If God creates me, knowing what I will choose because of my characteristics which he also created then it is his responsibility, his choice.  I am just following the script that he laid out.

If I was totally undeveloped intellectually then it is terrible.