Ac Milan given permission to talk to Carlos Tevez

Snoopy wrote:

Ibra - Tevez
Pato ----------- Robinho

BladeGunner14 wrote:

Laurencio wrote:

I don't rate him highly because I've never thought his movements have been all that good. Even during his first season with us I thought his movements were too erratic, often too agressive, and that he wasted a lot of energy just running around the pitch (hence headless chicken). It did help us considering he pressured the opponents, but he was never a main attacking outlet for us, and when he did get the "attacker" role I though that he often made completely ridiculous decisions in terms of play and passes.

Don't get me wrong he's a good player, and he'd be an asset for any team, but he's never going to be "The Star" at a very top European club.

Granted Higuain is not as versatile as Tevez, but he gets the goals. Tevez may be better playing with his back to the goal, and chasing the opponent around, but Higuain is simply better at putting the ball in the net. If a manager wants to break down a defence he doesn't pick Tevez mainly due to his creativity, finishing or even link up play, but due to his ability to close down and distrupt defenders. He's certainly a very useful player, who does have a lot of technical ability as well, but I would never consider him a "main man". Sergio Agüero is simply better at everything except for closing down opponents. He's also a "smarter" player, who picks passes and runs a lot more wisely than Tevez. I never understood Argentina's decision to play Tevez ahead of Agüero. It never made any sense to me.

Lione Messi does move all over the pitch, but he is most often the man who runs through the middle, and is the focal point of the attack. Pedro and Villa usually cut in from the sides, so I would say Messi is the closest thing to a striker Barca has at the moment.

There's no "evidence" to be presented. You're saying his technique is simply "good", and ask me to present evidence of the contrary. When that simply isn't true, nor have you presented any "evidence" to support that either. In his numerous apperances for Inter, Barca and Milan he's displayed technique of the very highest level. I don't know if you watch the Italian and Spanish league, but from watching him play it should be fairly obvious to anyone how good of a player, and how good of a technique, he really is/has.

I would say his "best" period is right now. The way he's playing for AC Milan now easily matches what he did for Inter, although he's a tad bit slower, and probably trumps that period of his career. I am not saying that Inter didn't have a good squad, but it's a well known fact in Italian football that Ibra carried Inter through the league on several occasions. Mancini's defensive approach to the Champions League probably didn't help all that much either.

In 2006/2007, they were knocked out by Valencia on away goals. Ibrahimovic had one shot hit the inside of the post and go out, and one that was a magnificent parry by Canizares.

In 2007/2008 In the first leg, Inter defender Materazzi recieves a red card in the 30th minute and Inter are down to 10 men against the best Liverpool side in the Premiership era. Cambiasso missed a great oppertunity to score from an Ibrahimovic pass. In the second, Cruz missed two great chances to score, both after Ibrahimovic played him through. Although I fully admitt that in this game Ibra could, and maybe should, have scored two goals himself.

In 2008/2009 Inter lost to a Manchester United side who went all the way to the final. Not really all that surprising. The squad wasn't really strong enough to compete in the champions league anymore either. Relying too much one one man.

Before Mourinho went out and bought players for the Ibra money, Ibra was largely involved in most areas of the game. He was their goalscorer (replaced by Eto'o), their link up man (Replaced by Sneijder), and their "second striker" (Diego Milito) all packed into one. In addition he reinforced the midfield with Thiago Motta, improved the defence with Lucio and added to the quality of the squad with Pandev.

Before that he had an aging Crespo and Cruz who couldn't find the net, a young and even more volatile than now Balottelli, a handful of youngsters and Ibrahimovic. So most of the time they relied entirely on one man to do the job for them.

Tevez was never "alone" though. He had Ronaldo who was our main man, Rooney who was our second man and Scholes who took care of most of the link up play. We had the squad to compete at the time. Inter didn't, and relied too much on their star. As for leading them in the leauge, that's exactly what Ibrahimovic has been doing for many seasons now. He led Inter to league titles, winning games on his own. Last season he led AC Milan, and he's leading them very well this season as well. AC Milan's general strategy in tough games has been "pass it to Ibra and hope for magic". And it's been working quite well so far.

I really don't see how you can keep on saying that his movements are poor. He has energy in abundance so I don't see how his movements would be unnecessary. With United, he was never prioritized and was played out of position regularly in order to allow Ronaldo to be the focal point of the team. Even Rooney wasn't particularly good during those couple of seasons. I actually remember him and Rooney linking up well frequently during the early parts of the 07/08 season before that partnership was compromised and Ronaldo took over. He never got the necessary opportunities to display his skills there.

I think it's very possible for him to be the "star" at a high profile European club. He's proven that he's capable of doing it on his own with a not particularly good City side. Why should that change if he was playing at a better side?

I think you're wrong by saying that Tevez would only be picked for hassling defenders. He's clearly capable of so much more. He is capable of doing things that Higuaín could only dream of. His goal against Serbia in 2006, his goal against Mexico in 2010, his goal against Chelsea from 25 yards last season, his solo effort against Wolves, his free-kick against Stoke... etc are all things that Higuaín could never do. Agüero is also not better than him at everything bar defending. Tevez is faster, a better finisher, a better shooter and his movement is also better.

I realize that Messi is the closest thing they have to a striker but that doesn't make him an out-and-out centre forward though. I'm sure if he did play there properly, he'd still be the best in the world though but it would be unfair to judge him hypothetically.

I do watch a fair amount of the Italian and the Spanish league so I'm quite knowledgeable as to how good Ibrahimovic is. There's nothing that resonates in my mind that indicates to me that he has exceptional technique. Could you please provide me with a clip or two of him displaying his supposedly phenomenal technique?

You keep providing excuses for him but the fact of the matter is that he's only ever scored two goals in so many knockout round matches and he's only ever scored more than 20 goals in one season, which incidentally was with Inter which is why I labeled his time there as the best of his life. There's no reasonable excuse as to why an Inter side that won three consecutive scuddetos could not beat Valencia. Good squad or not, Inter had a better team than them and Ibrahimovic should have risen to the occasion but did not. The Liverpool side of that season wasn't their best in the Premiership era anyway (it was the one of the season after) and they weren't significantly better than Inter. Also, if the champions of Italy had such a poor squad, shouldn't that undermine Ibrahimovic's achievements as according to you, Serie A evidently wasn't that great. And at that time, it really wasn't. Only Roma were providing serious competition in the league as Milan and Juventus rebuilt after they had been decimated by the scandal of 2006.

Also, I don't think it's a particularly significant achievement that he scored 16 goals with Barcelona and yet he was considered a flop. Villa basically did the same thing last season. At Barcelona, so many opportunities are created. You'd have to be totally incompetent if you failed to score goals while playing as the centre forward.

I never suggested that Tevez was alone, he evidently wasn't at all. He was though at City. The only time Ibrahimovic was alone was at Inter and I've already accounted for that period. At Milan, he is far from the "only man". He barely even scored in the second half of last season so he certainly didn't lead them single-handedly in the league as Tevez did with City. Milan won the scudetto through the help of their formidable defence as well as their decent attack which was down to both Ibrahimovic and Pato, among others (Boateng, Robinho...etc). No way did Ibrahimovic do it on his own.

Laurencio wrote:

BladeGunner14 wrote:

I really don't see how you can keep on saying that his movements are poor. He has energy in abundance so I don't see how his movements would be unnecessary. With United, he was never prioritized and was played out of position regularly in order to allow Ronaldo to be the focal point of the team. Even Rooney wasn't particularly good during those couple of seasons. I actually remember him and Rooney linking up well frequently during the early parts of the 07/08 season before that partnership was compromised and Ronaldo took over. He never got the necessary opportunities to display his skills there.

I think it's very possible for him to be the "star" at a high profile European club. He's proven that he's capable of doing it on his own with a not particularly good City side. Why should that change if he was playing at a better side?

I think you're wrong by saying that Tevez would only be picked for hassling defenders. He's clearly capable of so much more. He is capable of doing things that Higuaín could only dream of. His goal against Serbia in 2006, his goal against Mexico in 2010, his goal against Chelsea from 25 yards last season, his solo effort against Wolves, his free-kick against Stoke... etc are all things that Higuaín could never do. Agüero is also not better than him at everything bar defending. Tevez is faster, a better finisher, a better shooter and his movement is also better.

I realize that Messi is the closest thing they have to a striker but that doesn't make him an out-and-out centre forward though. I'm sure if he did play there properly, he'd still be the best in the world though but it would be unfair to judge him hypothetically.

I do watch a fair amount of the Italian and the Spanish league so I'm quite knowledgeable as to how good Ibrahimovic is. There's nothing that resonates in my mind that indicates to me that he has exceptional technique. Could you please provide me with a clip or two of him displaying his supposedly phenomenal technique?

You keep providing excuses for him but the fact of the matter is that he's only ever scored two goals in so many knockout round matches and he's only ever scored more than 20 goals in one season, which incidentally was with Inter which is why I labeled his time there as the best of his life. There's no reasonable excuse as to why an Inter side that won three consecutive scuddetos could not beat Valencia. Good squad or not, Inter had a better team than them and Ibrahimovic should have risen to the occasion but did not. The Liverpool side of that season wasn't their best in the Premiership era anyway (it was the one of the season after) and they weren't significantly better than Inter. Also, if the champions of Italy had such a poor squad, shouldn't that undermine Ibrahimovic's achievements as according to you, Serie A evidently wasn't that great. And at that time, it really wasn't. Only Roma were providing serious competition in the league as Milan and Juventus rebuilt after they had been decimated by the scandal of 2006.

Also, I don't think it's a particularly significant achievement that he scored 16 goals with Barcelona and yet he was considered a flop. Villa basically did the same thing last season. At Barcelona, so many opportunities are created. You'd have to be totally incompetent if you failed to score goals while playing as the centre forward.

I never suggested that Tevez was alone, he evidently wasn't at all. He was though at City. The only time Ibrahimovic was alone was at Inter and I've already accounted for that period. At Milan, he is far from the "only man". He barely even scored in the second half of last season so he certainly didn't lead them single-handedly in the league as Tevez did with City. Milan won the scudetto through the help of their formidable defence as well as their decent attack which was down to both Ibrahimovic and Pato, among others (Boateng, Robinho...etc). No way did Ibrahimovic do it on his own.

Well we're never going to agree with the movements. But I don't think they are as good as Agüero's. I think he moves a lot, but he doesn't move with intelligence. His frantic movements puts him in the right position sometimes, but other times he's just way off base.

I don't really believe a youtube clip justifies anything, as just about anyone can be made look good with a clip, but OK..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3r9tbwFbq4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Bz4G2DrvY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8MG7VvbQKo

All I'm saying is one player can not carry a team in every competition. There's no secret that the opposition faced in the CL was better than what they faced regulary in Serie A, as a result they required more from Ibra than he could provide. It does not lessen his impact in Serie A, and his impact for Inter, one bit. It is not difficult to see how important he is for AC Milan, nor was it difficult to see how important he was for Inter.

David Villa was the best striker in the world when he came to Barca, and his scoring average is no better than Ibrahimovic's. To then mark Ibra as a "flop" is just wrong. He was a great striker for them at the begining of the season. His decline in Barca came with his dispute with Guardiola.

When Mancini wanted to add to the strike force Tevez became unhappy. When he was set aside due to Mancini choosing better players over him, he threw a fit and is now persona non grata at Manchester City.

I did not say Ibra was the sole reason they won it. But he was a massive influence, both as a goalscorer, and a "playmaker".

BladeGunner14 wrote:

I really don't see how you can keep on saying that his movements are poor. He has energy in abundance so I don't see how his movements would be unnecessary. With United, he was never prioritized and was played out of position regularly in order to allow Ronaldo to be the focal point of the team. Even Rooney wasn't particularly good during those couple of seasons. I actually remember him and Rooney linking up well frequently during the early parts of the 07/08 season before that partnership was compromised and Ronaldo took over. He never got the necessary opportunities to display his skills there.

I think it's very possible for him to be the "star" at a high profile European club. He's proven that he's capable of doing it on his own with a not particularly good City side. Why should that change if he was playing at a better side?

I think you're wrong by saying that Tevez would only be picked for hassling defenders. He's clearly capable of so much more. He is capable of doing things that Higuaín could only dream of. His goal against Serbia in 2006, his goal against Mexico in 2010, his goal against Chelsea from 25 yards last season, his solo effort against Wolves, his free-kick against Stoke... etc are all things that Higuaín could never do. Agüero is also not better than him at everything bar defending. Tevez is faster, a better finisher, a better shooter and his movement is also better.

I realize that Messi is the closest thing they have to a striker but that doesn't make him an out-and-out centre forward though. I'm sure if he did play there properly, he'd still be the best in the world though but it would be unfair to judge him hypothetically.

I do watch a fair amount of the Italian and the Spanish league so I'm quite knowledgeable as to how good Ibrahimovic is. There's nothing that resonates in my mind that indicates to me that he has exceptional technique. Could you please provide me with a clip or two of him displaying his supposedly phenomenal technique?

You keep providing excuses for him but the fact of the matter is that he's only ever scored two goals in so many knockout round matches and he's only ever scored more than 20 goals in one season, which incidentally was with Inter which is why I labeled his time there as the best of his life. There's no reasonable excuse as to why an Inter side that won three consecutive scuddetos could not beat Valencia. Good squad or not, Inter had a better team than them and Ibrahimovic should have risen to the occasion but did not. The Liverpool side of that season wasn't their best in the Premiership era anyway (it was the one of the season after) and they weren't significantly better than Inter. Also, if the champions of Italy had such a poor squad, shouldn't that undermine Ibrahimovic's achievements as according to you, Serie A evidently wasn't that great. And at that time, it really wasn't. Only Roma were providing serious competition in the league as Milan and Juventus rebuilt after they had been decimated by the scandal of 2006.

Also, I don't think it's a particularly significant achievement that he scored 16 goals with Barcelona and yet he was considered a flop. Villa basically did the same thing last season. At Barcelona, so many opportunities are created. You'd have to be totally incompetent if you failed to score goals while playing as the centre forward.

I never suggested that Tevez was alone, he evidently wasn't at all. He was though at City. The only time Ibrahimovic was alone was at Inter and I've already accounted for that period. At Milan, he is far from the "only man". He barely even scored in the second half of last season so he certainly didn't lead them single-handedly in the league as Tevez did with City. Milan won the scudetto through the help of their formidable defence as well as their decent attack which was down to both Ibrahimovic and Pato, among others (Boateng, Robinho...etc). No way did Ibrahimovic do it on his own.

BladeGunner14 wrote:

Laurencio wrote:

Well we're never going to agree with the movements. But I don't think they are as good as Agüero's. I think he moves a lot, but he doesn't move with intelligence. His frantic movements puts him in the right position sometimes, but other times he's just way off base.

I don't really believe a youtube clip justifies anything, as just about anyone can be made look good with a clip, but OK..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3r9tbwFbq4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-Bz4G2DrvY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8MG7VvbQKo

All I'm saying is one player can not carry a team in every competition. There's no secret that the opposition faced in the CL was better than what they faced regulary in Serie A, as a result they required more from Ibra than he could provide. It does not lessen his impact in Serie A, and his impact for Inter, one bit. It is not difficult to see how important he is for AC Milan, nor was it difficult to see how important he was for Inter.

David Villa was the best striker in the world when he came to Barca, and his scoring average is no better than Ibrahimovic's. To then mark Ibra as a "flop" is just wrong. He was a great striker for them at the begining of the season. His decline in Barca came with his dispute with Guardiola.

When Mancini wanted to add to the strike force Tevez became unhappy. When he was set aside due to Mancini choosing better players over him, he threw a fit and is now persona non grata at Manchester City.

I did not say Ibra was the sole reason they won it. But he was a massive influence, both as a goalscorer, and a "playmaker".

I'm so glad you didn't respond with more paragraphs. Fucking exhausting.

As you said about the movements, discussion is becoming redundant now.

I'm not a fan of Youtube clips either but I could provide you with a couple of videos of Zinedine Zidane and you'd instantly realize that he has flawless technique. However, a couple of step-overs and back-heels don't prove this at all. Freestylers specialize in this kind of stuff, doesn't mean their technique is any good. Not to mention players like Quaresma who have proven that tricks and flicks can be absolutely useless.

What I'm saying is that the form of his life came when he was at Inter in a league where the quality wasn't what it once was. This doesn't render his performances with Inter completely merit-less, I fully acknowledge that he did very well to be the talisman of the side, however, it does show that he isn't capable of carrying a weaker side against the top level clubs as Tevez has done on multiple occasions in the Premier League.

It's wrong to just attribute Ibrahimovic's dispute with Guardiola as the sole reason for his failure at Barcelona. He hit a patch where he was playing horrendously in early 2010 (around February and March) and he struggled to ever get back into the side again. Messi was hitting hat-tricks every other game during that time, there was no reason to reincorporate Ibrahimovic back into the team.

He had a large role with Milan but he was helped out by a great team.

Laurencio wrote:

BladeGunner14 wrote:

I'm so glad you didn't respond with more paragraphs. Fucking exhausting.

As you said about the movements, discussion is becoming redundant now.

I'm not a fan of Youtube clips either but I could provide you with a couple of videos of Zinedine Zidane and you'd instantly realize that he has flawless technique. However, a couple of step-overs and back-heels don't prove this at all. Freestylers specialize in this kind of stuff, doesn't mean their technique is any good. Not to mention players like Quaresma who have proven that tricks and flicks can be absolutely useless.

What I'm saying is that the form of his life came when he was at Inter in a league where the quality wasn't what it once was. This doesn't render his performances with Inter completely merit-less, I fully acknowledge that he did very well to be the talisman of the side, however, it does show that he isn't capable of carrying a weaker side against the top level clubs as Tevez has done on multiple occasions in the Premier League.

It's wrong to just attribute Ibrahimovic's dispute with Guardiola as the sole reason for his failure at Barcelona. He hit a patch where he was playing horrendously in early 2010 (around February and March) and he struggled to ever get back into the side again. Messi was hitting hat-tricks every other game during that time, there was no reason to reincorporate Ibrahimovic back into the team.

He had a large role with Milan but he was helped out by a great team.

I think you can clearly see in his play, the way he controls the ball, the way he dribbles and the way he is able to hit the ball exactly where he wants to, that he does in fact have a world class technique. Not legendary, like Zidane, Messi, Maradona etc, but certainly in the top of the current game.

He won 3 scudettos and 2 italian cups with Inter. Two of which was after Juve and Milan were "back" in contention. Granted the two of them were weaker, but as you noted Milan was still strong enough to win the Champions League. I don't see how Tevez' one season of getting an Europa League finish, trumps that. You could argue that they never would have managed that if it wasn't for the collapse of Liverpool, and that the general defensive organization bellow the top 4 is worse than in Italy (Which I would readily argue).

I don't see how you can say that because of this Tevez could be a star at a top club(which he clearly can't, as he wasn't able to be one at City when they became a top club), and Ibra couldn't carry a weaker team. Which is impossible to know, because he's been a star at two of the biggest clubs in European football (Inter and Milan). And played very well for another (Barcelona), right up until he was more or less frozen out.

BladeGunner14 wrote:

Laurencio wrote:

I think you can clearly see in his play, the way he controls the ball, the way he dribbles and the way he is able to hit the ball exactly where he wants to, that he does in fact have a world class technique. Not legendary, like Zidane, Messi, Maradona etc, but certainly in the top of the current game.

He won 3 scudettos and 2 italian cups with Inter. Two of which was after Juve and Milan were "back" in contention. Granted the two of them were weaker, but as you noted Milan was still strong enough to win the Champions League. I don't see how Tevez' one season of getting an Europa League finish, trumps that. You could argue that they never would have managed that if it wasn't for the collapse of Liverpool, and that the general defensive organization bellow the top 4 is worse than in Italy (Which I would readily argue).

I don't see how you can say that because of this Tevez could be a star at a top club(which he clearly can't, as he wasn't able to be one at City when they became a top club), and Ibra couldn't carry a weaker team. Which is impossible to know, because he's been a star at two of the biggest clubs in European football (Inter and Milan). And played very well for another (Barcelona), right up until he was more or less frozen out.

I don't really see it, to be honest. I see him as extremely dependent on his strength and his powerful shots. His dribbling doesn't strike me as world class.

How were Milan and Juventus "back in contention" after one season only? Juventus had just been promoted and Milan were rebuilding what was a very old squad. Those two teams barely even threatened in Serie A. Only Roma did and they were never really a serious threat. Also, the quality of Serie A at that time was significantly worse than the Premier League was in 09/10. Also, you can't just account for City's Europa League finish as the only measurement tool of Tevez's success. Primarily, their team consisted of many average players and Tevez guided them to their highest ever Premier League finish while scoring 23 goals in the process. They were also within touching distance of the Champions League as they lost to Tottenham in the penultimate match of the season.

I think your logic is flawed for that last section. It would make a fair amount of sense that Tevez would be able to be a star at a big team as he proved his worth at a small team against other big teams. I don't expect Ibrahimovic to be able to play well at a small team since he's always been crowded by the best players in whichever league he's played in. Juventus was the best team in Italy when he was there and so were Inter, Barcelona and Milan. Also, Tevez didn't fail to be the star in a big team. He'd expressed his desire to leave City in late 2010 before City had become as big as they are now. He didn't want to be part of the team, regardless of whether they were big or small.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Nice to see a debate that has paragraphs in it and doesn't involve me for a change.

polska. wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Nice to see a debate that has paragraphs in it and doesn't involve me for a change.

It is, but I expect this from the science forums I post on, not on a forum about football. Why waste time on debating football? It's completely subjective and generally contributes next to nothing.

Laurencio wrote:

BladeGunner14 wrote:

I don't really see it, to be honest. I see him as extremely dependent on his strength and his powerful shots. His dribbling doesn't strike me as world class.

How were Milan and Juventus "back in contention" after one season only? Juventus had just been promoted and Milan were rebuilding what was a very old squad. Those two teams barely even threatened in Serie A. Only Roma did and they were never really a serious threat. Also, the quality of Serie A at that time was significantly worse than the Premier League was in 09/10. Also, you can't just account for City's Europa League finish as the only measurement tool of Tevez's success. Primarily, their team consisted of many average players and Tevez guided them to their highest ever Premier League finish while scoring 23 goals in the process. They were also within touching distance of the Champions League as they lost to Tottenham in the penultimate match of the season.

I think your logic is flawed for that last section. It would make a fair amount of sense that Tevez would be able to be a star at a big team as he proved his worth at a small team against other big teams. I don't expect Ibrahimovic to be able to play well at a small team since he's always been crowded by the best players in whichever league he's played in. Juventus was the best team in Italy when he was there and so were Inter, Barcelona and Milan. Also, Tevez didn't fail to be the star in a big team. He'd expressed his desire to leave City in late 2010 before City had become as big as they are now. He didn't want to be part of the team, regardless of whether they were big or small.

He does use his strength and shot power to intimidate and "power through" defenders. However, his assist rate, and his numerous involvements in the majority of AC Milan's attack over the past two seasons, his involvement in virtually every attack for Inter (setting up Crespo and Cruz on several occasions only to see them hit it wide) and his ability to hold on to the ball while players come up from the middle, is clear evidence of his technical ability.

AC Milan didn't really lose any players though, they had the best defenders in the world (Nesta and Maldini), The best playmaker (Andrea Pirlo), and the best striker (Shevcenko). They had a small point punishment the first season after Calciopoli, but they were still in essence the same side.

Juve did lose a handful of key players, but were not a weak squad by any means. Buffon, Del Piero, Nedved, Cameronesi and Trezeguet remained. Once they returned to Serie A they were still a quality team, although with crap management.

A Champions League spot that never would have been available if it hadn't been for the decline of Liverpool. Neither Spurs, nor City would have been able to take 4th if Liverpool had remained strong. They would have competed for 5th, and City would probably have ended up on 6th. In addition Mancini was also very good at using the defence to his benefit. Tevez was their main attacker and important in that regard, but their biggest strength was their defence, which ensured that they didn't lose away matches.

Your logic is : Ibrahimovic can be a key player, and leading star, for the biggest sides in Europe, but he certainly couldn't play well against bigger sides for a small side. That does NOT make ANY sense. Especially considering while at Inter he basically took down strong sides on his own.

Tevez had his chance to be a star. He was offered a new contract by Manchester United, which he rejected because he didn't like the competition for places. I know people think Ferugson was stubborn with Berabtov, and perhaps he was, but Tevez could have made himself "unavoidable", he didn't take that chance. He was happy and enjoying himself greatly at Manchester City, up until the point Mancini mentioned he was going to bring in new players, and new strikers. Instead of fighting for his place like a real star, he didn't really play well when given the chance, and it all ended in disgrace when he refused to play.

So to recap, where has Tevez been a star? West Ham and Manchester City. Where has Ibrahimovic been a star? Ajax, Juventus, Inter and AC Milan, as well as a short half a season as a megastar at Barcelona. How does thate in any way tell you Tevez would be a star at a big club (although he's failed twice), and Ibra can not? (Star at some of the biggest clubs in Europe).

BladeGunner14 wrote:

Laurencio wrote:

He does use his strength and shot power to intimidate and "power through" defenders. However, his assist rate, and his numerous involvements in the majority of AC Milan's attack over the past two seasons, his involvement in virtually every attack for Inter (setting up Crespo and Cruz on several occasions only to see them hit it wide) and his ability to hold on to the ball while players come up from the middle, is clear evidence of his technical ability.

AC Milan didn't really lose any players though, they had the best defenders in the world (Nesta and Maldini), The best playmaker (Andrea Pirlo), and the best striker (Shevcenko). They had a small point punishment the first season after Calciopoli, but they were still in essence the same side.

Juve did lose a handful of key players, but were not a weak squad by any means. Buffon, Del Piero, Nedved, Cameronesi and Trezeguet remained. Once they returned to Serie A they were still a quality team, although with crap management.

A Champions League spot that never would have been available if it hadn't been for the decline of Liverpool. Neither Spurs, nor City would have been able to take 4th if Liverpool had remained strong. They would have competed for 5th, and City would probably have ended up on 6th. In addition Mancini was also very good at using the defence to his benefit. Tevez was their main attacker and important in that regard, but their biggest strength was their defence, which ensured that they didn't lose away matches.

Your logic is : Ibrahimovic can be a key player, and leading star, for the biggest sides in Europe, but he certainly couldn't play well against bigger sides for a small side. That does NOT make ANY sense. Especially considering while at Inter he basically took down strong sides on his own.

Tevez had his chance to be a star. He was offered a new contract by Manchester United, which he rejected because he didn't like the competition for places. I know people think Ferugson was stubborn with Berabtov, and perhaps he was, but Tevez could have made himself "unavoidable", he didn't take that chance. He was happy and enjoying himself greatly at Manchester City, up until the point Mancini mentioned he was going to bring in new players, and new strikers. Instead of fighting for his place like a real star, he didn't really play well when given the chance, and it all ended in disgrace when he refused to play.

So to recap, where has Tevez been a star? West Ham and Manchester City. Where has Ibrahimovic been a star? Ajax, Juventus, Inter and AC Milan, as well as a short half a season as a megastar at Barcelona. How does thate in any way tell you Tevez would be a star at a big club (although he's failed twice), and Ibra can not? (Star at some of the biggest clubs in Europe).

Providing assists doesn't automatically mean one is technically proficient. Have you seen Stewart Downing's assist stats. They're brilliant. Does that automatically mean that he's technically capable? Not at all. Emile Heskey holds up the play well for his team-mates and provides them with opportunities to play. Doesn't mean he's technically capable either.

Milan had a really old squad in those couple of years. Maldini wasn't anywhere near the best defender in the world, he was long past this stage. Shevchenko had already left to Chelsea too and Milan's attacking options were vastly limited. They had to rely on Pato who only joined in early 2008 and he was still very inexperienced. Even Kaka had a difficult couple of seasons where injuries prevented him from ever reaching the heights of the 06/07 season. Juventus had a very poor squad. Most of their players were also well past it and more importantly, they didn't have a great manager to lead them like they had previously with Lippi and Cappelo. They did well for a team that was in Serie B the previous season but they never threatened to actually win the league.

I don't know why you keep saying that a Champions League spot would have never been available if it wasn't for Liverpool's decline. Both City and Tottenham proved they were more than capable sides. Both teams beat Arsenal and Chelsea in the league convincingly. Regarding City's defence, it was decent but I don't see how that undermines Tevez's attacking achievements. He still managed 23 goals and was their only real attacking threat. A team can defend all it wants but it needs to find goals and in a sea of mediocrity with players like Wright-Phillips, an uninterested Robinho and a totally incompetent Santa Cruz, Tevez created goals by himself for the team and he was excellent.

I don't see how my logic doesn't make any sense. If he's only ever performed while surrounded by world class players then how does that signify that he could ever achieve the same feats surrounded by inferior players? He didn't do the same thing with Inter as he failed to take down strong sides in the Champions League.

How can you blame Tevez for not appreciating being played second fiddle to Dimitar Berbatov? Especially when in the previous season, when he was a starter, United won the Champions League and Premier League double. He also didn't want to leave City just because Mancini mentioned that he was bringing in new players and strikers. I don't if this is a personal theory of yours but it is certainly not a fact. He expressed his desire to leave way before City were starting to look good. He didn't fail to be the star despite being in a big team, he never got the opportunity. I'm confident that if he was surrounded by good players and he was the focal point of the side, he would thrive.

Laurencio wrote:

BladeGunner14 wrote:

Providing assists doesn't automatically mean one is technically proficient. Have you seen Stewart Downing's assist stats. They're brilliant. Does that automatically mean that he's technically capable? Not at all. Emile Heskey holds up the play well for his team-mates and provides them with opportunities to play. Doesn't mean he's technically capable either.

Milan had a really old squad in those couple of years. Maldini wasn't anywhere near the best defender in the world, he was long past this stage. Shevchenko had already left to Chelsea too and Milan's attacking options were vastly limited. They had to rely on Pato who only joined in early 2008 and he was still very inexperienced. Even Kaka had a difficult couple of seasons where injuries prevented him from ever reaching the heights of the 06/07 season. Juventus had a very poor squad. Most of their players were also well past it and more importantly, they didn't have a great manager to lead them like they had previously with Lippi and Cappelo. They did well for a team that was in Serie B the previous season but they never threatened to actually win the league.

I don't know why you keep saying that a Champions League spot would have never been available if it wasn't for Liverpool's decline. Both City and Tottenham proved they were more than capable sides. Both teams beat Arsenal and Chelsea in the league convincingly. Regarding City's defence, it was decent but I don't see how that undermines Tevez's attacking achievements. He still managed 23 goals and was their only real attacking threat. A team can defend all it wants but it needs to find goals and in a sea of mediocrity with players like Wright-Phillips, an uninterested Robinho and a totally incompetent Santa Cruz, Tevez created goals by himself for the team and he was excellent.

I don't see how my logic doesn't make any sense. If he's only ever performed while surrounded by world class players then how does that signify that he could ever achieve the same feats surrounded by inferior players? He didn't do the same thing with Inter as he failed to take down strong sides in the Champions League.

How can you blame Tevez for not appreciating being played second fiddle to Dimitar Berbatov? Especially when in the previous season, when he was a starter, United won the Champions League and Premier League double. He also didn't want to leave City just because Mancini mentioned that he was bringing in new players and strikers. I don't if this is a personal theory of yours but it is certainly not a fact. He expressed his desire to leave way before City were starting to look good. He didn't fail to be the star despite being in a big team, he never got the opportunity. I'm confident that if he was surrounded by good players and he was the focal point of the side, he would thrive.

Woah. I'm not saying his assist rate alone is evidence of good technique. I'm saying that from watching him make these assists, the way he is involved in almost every attack for AC Milan, and was for Inter, and the way he holds up the ball, it is fairly obvious that the man has world class technique. I also think comparing Heskey and Downing to Ibrahimovic is just absurd, but you knew that when you wrote it.

Sheva was in AC Milan for one season more after the Calciopoli scandal. Nesta was the best player in the world in 2006 and 2007, and Maldini wasn't washed up at the time either. Their defence was easily one of the best in the league, and they had the best player in the league at the time Kaká on their side. They also won the champions league as you noted earlier.

Juve's squad was still very good. Several of those players had won the World Cup, or been a massive influence for their countries, only a season earlier. Juve's weakness was poor management, but they were still a solid team.

So basically, because Ibrahimovic hasn't scored in the Knockout rounds of the CL he must be unable to play for a weaker side? This despite playing well against a Champions League winning AC Milan on several occasions, Juventus, Inter now and before that, a Roma side that got all the way to the quarter finals in 2007 and basically earning those vital points all on his own in the league?

I do think that he doesn't score enough goals for a striker of his talent though.

Tevez could have easily signed a contract and made himself "unavoidable". Ferguson might have been a little stubborn with Berbatov, but he certainly wasn't stupid. As for his desire to leave city. He was adament about wanting to leave for his family, yet he was also angling for a move to other European clubs? I may have drawn some wrong conclusions, but I find it highly suspect that the more quality was brought into Manchester City the stronger was his desire to leave, and he became more and more unhappy.

I can not see any scenario where it is remotely logical that Tevez went from being "content" with playing for City for an entire season despite wanting to "leave", to refuse to play once the club has FINALY become a top club. He had a chance to be a star, and he didn't take it. He had the same at Manchester United, with Ronaldo gone he could have cemented himself as our star, he didn't. We had a bunch of good players around him, he had a bunch of good players around him with City. But when it came down to it he completely failed. Because of his personality and his complete intollerance for competition I struggle to see how he could be a star for a top club.

BladeGunner14 wrote:

Laurencio wrote:

Woah. I'm not saying his assist rate alone is evidence of good technique. I'm saying that from watching him make these assists, the way he is involved in almost every attack for AC Milan, and was for Inter, and the way he holds up the ball, it is fairly obvious that the man has world class technique. I also think comparing Heskey and Downing to Ibrahimovic is just absurd, but you knew that when you wrote it.

Sheva was in AC Milan for one season more after the Calciopoli scandal. Nesta was the best player in the world in 2006 and 2007, and Maldini wasn't washed up at the time either. Their defence was easily one of the best in the league, and they had the best player in the league at the time Kaká on their side. They also won the champions league as you noted earlier.

Juve's squad was still very good. Several of those players had won the World Cup, or been a massive influence for their countries, only a season earlier. Juve's weakness was poor management, but they were still a solid team.

So basically, because Ibrahimovic hasn't scored in the Knockout rounds of the CL he must be unable to play for a weaker side? This despite playing well against a Champions League winning AC Milan on several occasions, Juventus, Inter now and before that, a Roma side that got all the way to the quarter finals in 2007 and basically earning those vital points all on his own in the league?

I do think that he doesn't score enough goals for a striker of his talent though.

Tevez could have easily signed a contract and made himself "unavoidable". Ferguson might have been a little stubborn with Berbatov, but he certainly wasn't stupid. As for his desire to leave city. He was adament about wanting to leave for his family, yet he was also angling for a move to other European clubs? I may have drawn some wrong conclusions, but I find it highly suspect that the more quality was brought into Manchester City the stronger was his desire to leave, and he became more and more unhappy.

I can not see any scenario where it is remotely logical that Tevez went from being "content" with playing for City for an entire season despite wanting to "leave", to refuse to play once the club has FINALY become a top club. He had a chance to be a star, and he didn't take it. He had the same at Manchester United, with Ronaldo gone he could have cemented himself as our star, he didn't. We had a bunch of good players around him, he had a bunch of good players around him with City. But when it came down to it he completely failed. Because of his personality and his complete intollerance for competition I struggle to see how he could be a star for a top club.

I obviously don't think that Downing and Heskey are even remotely comparable to Ibrahimovic, he is clearly an infinitely superior player. However, I was providing a hyperbolic example of how the features that you pointed out do not necessarily imply that a player has good technique. As I said before, I simply don't see it. You keep on mentioning that the way he holds up the ball and is involved in his team's attacks is world class but I really haven't seen it. It's an entirely subjective matter and there's really no point on going on perpetually with you saying that Ibrahimovic has good technique and me refuting it by saying that he doesn't without solid evidence being provided in either case.

Shevchenko left Milan in 2006 when Calciopoli had just struck. I don't know how you can say that Nesta was the best player in the world but Kaka was the best player in the league, doesn't make much sense. And Nesta was definitely not the best player in the world in 2006 and 2007. He barely featured in the World Cup and only played 14 games in the 06/07 league season. Also, you could point out the qualities of their players from now until tomorrow but it won't change the fact that Milan finished 21 points behind Inter in 07/08. Juventus finished 12 points behind Inter and 10 points behind Roma in third place. There was effectively no competition in Serie A during that time except from Roma who weren't particularly great either. I'm not saying that anything Ibrahimovic did during that time in the league is without merit but he was playing in the best team in a league that was rebuilding.

I'm not entirely ruling out the possibility that Tevez wanted to leave City because more and more quality players were being brought in but it just does not make sense to me. Why would he want to leave Manchester City because he wouldn't be the star man only to go to Milan who arguably have just as much quality?

I don't think if Tevez had stayed at Manchester United, he would have become the star of the side. Maybe Ferguson had made it clear that Rooney was the priority, much like Ronaldo was before him. It certainly wouldn't be the only time Ferguson has done that, just look at the way he froze out Berbatov in order to reincorporate Rooney into the team despite being utterly useless for almost a year that started in April 2010.

Tevez obviously is a difficult character and if it's one thing that could prevent him from becoming the main player in a big team, it's his attitude. However, based on his talent alone, I feel that he is more than capable of succeeding at a top European club and I think I will be proven right if he does eventually join Milan.

Eternal Witcher wrote:Kuled, you're a faggot of the highest order.

Laurencio wrote:

BladeGunner14 wrote:

I obviously don't think that Downing and Heskey are even remotely comparable to Ibrahimovic, he is clearly an infinitely superior player. However, I was providing a hyperbolic example of how the features that you pointed out do not necessarily imply that a player has good technique. As I said before, I simply don't see it. You keep on mentioning that the way he holds up the ball and is involved in his team's attacks is world class but I really haven't seen it. It's an entirely subjective matter and there's really no point on going on perpetually with you saying that Ibrahimovic has good technique and me refuting it by saying that he doesn't without solid evidence being provided in either case.

Shevchenko left Milan in 2006 when Calciopoli had just struck. I don't know how you can say that Nesta was the best player in the world but Kaka was the best player in the league, doesn't make much sense. And Nesta was definitely not the best player in the world in 2006 and 2007. He barely featured in the World Cup and only played 14 games in the 06/07 league season. Also, you could point out the qualities of their players from now until tomorrow but it won't change the fact that Milan finished 21 points behind Inter in 07/08. Juventus finished 12 points behind Inter and 10 points behind Roma in third place. There was effectively no competition in Serie A during that time except from Roma who weren't particularly great either. I'm not saying that anything Ibrahimovic did during that time in the league is without merit but he was playing in the best team in a league that was rebuilding.

I'm not entirely ruling out the possibility that Tevez wanted to leave City because more and more quality players were being brought in but it just does not make sense to me. Why would he want to leave Manchester City because he wouldn't be the star man only to go to Milan who arguably have just as much quality?

I don't think if Tevez had stayed at Manchester United, he would have become the star of the side. Maybe Ferguson had made it clear that Rooney was the priority, much like Ronaldo was before him. It certainly wouldn't be the only time Ferguson has done that, just look at the way he froze out Berbatov in order to reincorporate Rooney into the team despite being utterly useless for almost a year that started in April 2010.

Tevez obviously is a difficult character and if it's one thing that could prevent him from becoming the main player in a big team, it's his attitude. However, based on his talent alone, I feel that he is more than capable of succeeding at a top European club and I think I will be proven right if he does eventually join Milan.

I just find it incredibly surprising how you can not see that Ibrahimovic's technique is very good. I would emplore you to watch more AC Milan matches, because frankly he displays it every week, but if you haven't seen it yet...

Regarding Nesta I meant that he was the best Defender in the world, not the best player. That was clearly Ronaldinho. I do understand the arguement that he was playing for the best side, but from watching Inter matches at the time, I can confidently say that he won the club points on his own, and was without a doubt the single most important, and best, player Inter had. Right now he is easily the best player in AC Milan as well. He was also highly influential in the Juve side that won Serie A (granted it was revoked because of Calciopoli, but that doesn't really change the fact that he did perform very well against all the big teams).

Tevez simply strikes me as a quitter. If Tevez had kept his head down and worked to get into the first eleven Ferguson most likely would have respected that. There was also no reason why Tevez couldn't adapt to playing with Rooney either. He simply gave up. As for Ferguson. Rooney's ability is unquestionable. I don't think anyone was surprised that he would prioritize the younger, and argueably more talented, Wayne Rooney rather than Berbatov. Except maybe Liam.

Tevez obviously has talent, I however do not see him being one of the best strikers in the world. He's certainly in a top 10 bracket, but based on the points we disagree on (his movement and intelligence on and off the ball) I don't see him as being equal to Ibrahimovic. While Ibrahimovic can play without his speed and stamina, this is not the case for Tevez and I could see him decline very quickly once he loses just a little bit of speed.

As I have noted though, the reason I highly doubt he'll be successful at Milan isn't primarily because of a lack of talent. Rather because he is bound to clash with Ibra. Probably because Ibrahimovic and the massively talented Pato will be prioritized (in the same way as Rooney and Berbatov was at Manchester United). Which will lead him to becoming unhappy again, throw his toys out of his pram and want to go back to Argentina or Brazil so he can be the star..

Both in personality and in ability I consider Ibrahimovic a much bigger star than Tevez.