World Cup 2014 discussion thread.

Theo Filippo wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:
A European Championship, a World Cup, easing through any and all qualification tournaments, and he deserves the sack after two bad games?  No such thing as goodwill in this world, hey?

How is any of that relevant?

How is being the most successful manager in Spain history and a wealth of success over he last 6 years versus 2 bad games relevant?  Gee, I don't know.

It's not two bad games though is it? Spain have been dreadful since 2012 and it's because of VDB's squad and team selection + abysmal tactics.

The fact that he won a World Cup and European championship years ago doesn't really matter that much.

Can't imagine they'd sack him yet. He should probably resign.

Apparently wants to resign but Spanish FA want him to stay on

Joel Campbell for value here, does anyone know if he's Costa Rica's penalty taker?

Also Germany @ 4/1 to win the world cup seems like really good value.

Does Perisic's face give anyone else cancer?  I can't put my finger on what I find so irritating about it.

He looks too much like Robben.

The irony in all this is that it would have been best for all parties, Brazil, Spain and Costa himself had he chosen to play for Brazil.

I like VDB, but he made some weird squad selections. Although I think Costa screwed him over, not just at this world cup but all the way back in October when he made his intentions to switch public. Had VDB not picked him with his form and Spain's lack of a ST then he would have been lynched by the media.

Not nice to see the England captain sucking off Luis Suarez in the media. It's a disgrace really.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Not nice to see the England captain sucking off Luis Suarez in the media.  It's a disgrace really.

Of course it is.

Theo Filippo wrote:It's not two bad games though is it? Spain have been dreadful since 2012 and it's because of VDB's squad and team selection + abysmal tactics.

The fact that he won a World Cup and European championship years ago doesn't really matter that much.

It doesn't matter only in the world "what have you done for me lately"ists.  But I think people who have a bit more patience would give the guy a litte more time because he's a proven commodity.  He's earned the right to show that he can adapt.  He deserves that trust for at least one more tournament.  I'm pretty he knows what went wrong and is more than capable of fixing it.

Anyway, I've read it in the rumor mill that he's going to resign.  So the point may be moot.

menalawyerguy wrote:

Theo Filippo wrote:It's not two bad games though is it? Spain have been dreadful since 2012 and it's because of VDB's squad and team selection + abysmal tactics.

The fact that he won a World Cup and European championship years ago doesn't really matter that much.

It doesn't matter only in the world "what have you done for me lately"ists.  But I think people who have a bit more patience would give the guy a litte more time because he's a proven commodity.  He's earned the right to show that he can adapt.  He deserves that trust for at least one more tournament.  I'm pretty he knows what went wrong and is more than capable of fixing it.

Anyway, I've read it in the rumor mill that he's going to resign.  So the point may be moot.

Del Bosque did well, won two titles etc. However, he inherited a solid gold team that didn't require any obvious changes once he started to break out on his own and start changing the constituent parts of the team that were ending their cycle, he failed. He didn't have the insight or confidence to make the right changes to the team this world cup for example in every area of the field there were better options that didn't go. Every year under VDB Spain got less exciting and convincing especially since 2012.

So in short - Del Bosque inherited a golden team and let it decline quicker than he should've.

What team would you have played, o' wise one?

Theo Filippo wrote:

menalawyerguy wrote:

It doesn't matter only in the world "what have you done for me lately"ists.  But I think people who have a bit more patience would give the guy a litte more time because he's a proven commodity.  He's earned the right to show that he can adapt.  He deserves that trust for at least one more tournament.  I'm pretty he knows what went wrong and is more than capable of fixing it.

Anyway, I've read it in the rumor mill that he's going to resign.  So the point may be moot.

Del Bosque did well, won two titles etc. However, he inherited a solid gold team that didn't require any obvious changes once he started to break out on his own and start changing the constituent parts of the team that were ending their cycle, he failed. He didn't have the insight or confidence to make the right changes to the team this world cup for example in every area of the field there were better options that didn't go. Every year under VDB Spain got less exciting and convincing especially since 2012.

So in short - Del Bosque inherited a golden team and let it decline quicker than he should've.

So how long should this team have gone on winning tournaments?  Two more World Cups and a European Championship or two?  The guys he picked were, for the most, perfoming well at club level.  Even Casillas, despite being number 2 at Madrid, was coming off a succesfull Champions League campaign.  How was Del Bosque supposed to know he would turn into a fumbling idiot in the World Cup?  Sergio Ramos just had maybe his best club season ever.  How was anybody to know he would turn to shit just two weeks after playing a pivotal role in the Champions League final?  Is there a manager in the world who would't have played Iniesta, Xavi and Silva in the first game?  Should he have not played Pique, Alonso or Busquets?  Perhaps we can say that now, but hindsight is 20/20.  There are no managers who would have not chosen those players.  Sometimes you don't know that a combination doesn't work anymore until you actually see it on the field.  Del Bosque did inherit a golden team but how could he have done better than he did?  He won every tournament he wanted to win, until now (nobody gives a flying fuck about the Confederations Cup).  Now he knows what he did wrong, he deserves one more tournament.

Maybe VDB should have known that Casillas wasn't worthy of being picked because Ancelotti and Mourinho have been picking another Spanish goalkeeper ahead of him week in week out for two years. He did his best to fuck everything up the Champions League as well.

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Maybe VDB should have known that Casillas wasn't worthy of being picked because Ancelotti and Mourinho have been picking another Spanish goalkeeper ahead of him week in week out for two years.  He did his best to fuck everything up the Champions League as well.

It's a fair point.  And he probably should have played strikerless with Fabregas as a false 9 like he did in the European Championship.  These are errors but are they sackable errors for a manger with his record?

Also, his love affair with Fernando Torres has to end.  This is beyond comical now.  He has David Villa sitting there but he keeps chosing useless Torres.

Scott_LFC wrote:What team would you have played, o' wise one?

First game I would've played:
Casillas
Azp-I. Martinez(Wasn't picked somehow)-Pique-Alba
Busquets-J. Martinez (Double pivot, somehow fucking Alonso played instead  )
Xavi/Fabregas  
Pedro-Llorente (Costa clearly unfit)-Iniesta 

Although it's not really the point, the point was that Del Bosque picked such a bad squad that when things were going wrong he didn't have any suitable answers.

menalawyerguy wrote:So how long should this team have gone on winning tournaments?  Two more World Cups and a European Championship or two?  The guys he picked were, for the most, perfoming well at club level.  Even Casillas, despite being number 2 at Madrid, was coming off a succesfull Champions League campaign.  How was Del Bosque supposed to know he would turn into a fumbling idiot in the World Cup?  Sergio Ramos just had maybe his best club season ever.  How was anybody to know he would turn to shit just two weeks after playing an pivotal role in the Champions League final?  Is there a manager in the world who would't have played Iniesta, Xavi and Silva in the first game?  Should he have not played Pique, Alonso or Busquets?  Perhaps we can say that now, but hindsight is 20/20.  There are no managers who would have not chosen those players.  Sometimes you don't know that a combination doesn't work anymore until you actually see it on the field.  Del Bosque did inherit a golden team but how could he have done better than he did?  He won every tournament he wanted to win, until now (nobody gives a flying fuck about the Confederations Cup).  Now he knows what he did wrong, he deserves one more tournament.

They shouldn't be going out in the group stages as the defending world cup champions, that's for sure. And that's not really true, the only players who started for Spain that had really good seasons were Costa, Busquets and Azpi - Everyone else that had really good seasons were benched or not chosen (Koke, Llorente). Ramos wasn't particularly outstanding either and no better than Pique despite winning a champions league. Alonso, Ramos, Silva all should't have played but VDB is too loyal and unable to make sufficient changes - The warning signs have been there for a long time and he's either not recognised them or ignored them there's a reason that Casillas had been dropped and Real Madrid were largely inconsistent during the season. Your logic of 'Oh he won stuff so he must be good' is ridiculous too, it's like using Wenger's past achievements in 2002-2004 as a reason for staying at Arsenal.

menalawyerguy wrote:Also, his love affair with Fernando Torres has to end.  This is beyond comical now.  He has David Villa sitting there but he keeps chosing useless Torres.

David Villa's been useless too, Llorente, Negredo and Aduriz were all left out because of these two clowns.

You'd pick Casillas over De Gea?

I read that he got injured and was out for the group stages, same reason I didn't bother including Thiago in the line up

menalawyerguy wrote:

ResurrectionRooney wrote:Maybe VDB should have known that Casillas wasn't worthy of being picked because Ancelotti and Mourinho have been picking another Spanish goalkeeper ahead of him week in week out for two years.  He did his best to fuck everything up the Champions League as well.

It's a fair point.  And he probably should have played strikerless with Fabregas as a false 9 like he did in the European Championship.  These are errors but are they sackable errors for a manger with his record?

I wouldn't say so, but let's not pretend he didn't have a disastrous tournament. There's no way Costa or Casillas should have played.

Theo Filippo wrote:

Scott_LFC wrote:What team would you have played, o' wise one?

First game I would've played:
Casillas
Azp-I. Martinez(Wasn't picked somehow)-Pique-Alba
Busquets-J. Martinez (Double pivot, somehow fucking Alonso played instead  )
Xavi/Fabregas  
Pedro-Llorente (Costa clearly unfit)-Iniesta 

Although it's not really the point, the point was that Del Bosque picked such a bad squad that when things were going wrong he didn't have any suitable answers.

menalawyerguy wrote:So how long should this team have gone on winning tournaments?  Two more World Cups and a European Championship or two?  The guys he picked were, for the most, perfoming well at club level.  Even Casillas, despite being number 2 at Madrid, was coming off a succesfull Champions League campaign.  How was Del Bosque supposed to know he would turn into a fumbling idiot in the World Cup?  Sergio Ramos just had maybe his best club season ever.  How was anybody to know he would turn to shit just two weeks after playing an pivotal role in the Champions League final?  Is there a manager in the world who would't have played Iniesta, Xavi and Silva in the first game?  Should he have not played Pique, Alonso or Busquets?  Perhaps we can say that now, but hindsight is 20/20.  There are no managers who would have not chosen those players.  Sometimes you don't know that a combination doesn't work anymore until you actually see it on the field.  Del Bosque did inherit a golden team but how could he have done better than he did?  He won every tournament he wanted to win, until now (nobody gives a flying fuck about the Confederations Cup).  Now he knows what he did wrong, he deserves one more tournament.

They shouldn't be going out in the group stages as the defending world cup champions, that's for sure. And that's not really true, the only players who started for Spain that had really good seasons were Costa, Busquets and Azpi - Everyone else that had really good seasons were benched or not chosen (Koke, Llorente). Ramos wasn't particularly outstanding either and no better than Pique despite winning a champions league. Alonso, Ramos, Silva all should't have played but VDB is too loyal and unable to make sufficient changes - The warning signs have been there for a long time and he's either not recognised them or ignored them there's a reason that Casillas had been dropped and Real Madrid were largely inconsistent during the season. Your logic of 'Oh he won stuff so he must be good' is ridiculous too, it's like using Wenger's past achievements in 2002-2004 as a reason for staying at Arsenal.

Wenger should have been out in 2008 or 2009, but not before that.  Similarly, if Spain flops in Euro qualifying or the Euro finals, then yes, time's up.  But he's earned more than one bad tournament.

Also, do you want to send the message to potential managers that no matter how well you do over the next four or five years, as soon as you have one bad year, we'll toss you out?  What if Man Utd did that to Alex Ferguson in the early 90s.  Where would they be now?

menalawyerguy wrote:Also, do you want to send the message to potential managers that no matter how well you do over the next four or five years, as soon as you have one bad year, we'll toss you out?  What if Man Utd did that to Alex Ferguson in the early 90s.  Where would they be now?

Yes, that message should be sent out at international football. 'If you make a great team decline faster than they should've we'll find another manager'.

Was anyone saying he picked a poor squad before the tournament? It's easy to say now, but everyone was talking about how good it was, and several of you picked them to win.

SBSP wrote:Was anyone saying he picked a poor squad before the tournament? It's easy to say now, but everyone was talking about how good it was, and several of you picked them to win.

Its not really a criticism of the squad selection, the problem is that he only used half of it.

SBSP wrote:Was anyone saying he picked a poor squad before the tournament?

Yeah, they were. Loads of people were moaning about Villa, Torres, Albiol etc being picked. Most people just didn't think they'd need to call upon these players though.

That was pretty amazing by Gervinho.