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    'Big' clubs and youth

    blackskar
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    Post by blackskar Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:15 am

    Read this today and thought it would make a good dicsussion topic:

    Instead of sending young players on loan to polish them, maybe big clubs could just not sign youthful prospects until they actually required them

    Daniel Sturridge expertly scored his third goal in as many games for Bolton, where he is on loan from Chelsea. Following Jack Wilshere's success at the Reebok last season while on loan from Arsenal, Bolton are rapidly developing a reputation as a finishing school par excellence for Britain's brightest talents. Both players, as it happens, started their journeys to prominence at small(ish) clubs, only to be snaffled in their youth by bigger names when their precocity became evident – Wilshere entered Luton's youth system only to be lured away by Arsenal at the age of nine, while Sturridge (having taken his first steps with Aston Villa) was taken from Coventry by Manchester City when he was 13.

    Of course we'll never know what would have become of them had they not left those clubs. The coaching they have enjoyed since their departures may well have been of a higher standard, and the facilities almost certainly are. They may not have soared so high, so soon. But then again, they might have made their way to the top at a more sensible pace. Several smaller clubs might have made much-needed profits from transfer fees as the players progressed (though Coventry did make something from Sturridge in the end, a sell-on fee of around £350,000 when he joined Chelsea).

    They may still have spent some time at Bolton, or a club very much like Bolton, before making their way to one of the Champions League-space-hogging behemoths. Is this model not better than the big clubs simply hoovering up all the best youngsters as early and as cheaply as possible and then spitting out the ones who fail to make the grade at a later date? Last season's top four between them have 49 players currently out on loan – according to soccerbase.com – the vast majority of whom will never earn a place in their host clubs' first XIs. Something, it strikes me, is not quite right.

    "Bolton's just a platform for me to try and impress everyone, not just at Chelsea but everywhere in the world," Sturridge had said on the eve of Everton game. But haven't Bolton earned the right to be more than just a platform? They should be proud of the role they are playing in the development of these players, but angry at the system that forces it upon them.

    What do you think? Should the bigger clubs leave youth at the lower level? Or is them snapping up the players better for them in the long run anyway? Is the current system of developing and snapping up the brightest prospects in football detrimental on the lower clubs?

    Discuss shifty
    Cornholio
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    Post by Cornholio Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:17 am

    Yes but it doesn't make sense financially.

    Sign a player before he's developed, you pay less.

    Sign a player when he's fully developed, you pay a ton.
    Danny
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    Post by Danny Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:19 am

    If bigger clubs snapped up the young players later on, they'd end up usually paying a hell of a lot more... Not sure they'd like doing that. I don't see a problem with them going out on loan either, benefits all 3 parties (parent club, player, loan club) if it works out.

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    Post by Guest Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:19 am

    Interesting question.

    Though it is such a case-by-case thing that a definitive answer is impossible.
    luke.
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    Post by luke. Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:19 am

    Cornholio wrote:Yes but it doesn't make sense financially.

    Sign a player before he's developed, you pay less.

    Sign a player when he's fully developed, you pay a ton.

    It does make sense.. it's called value.
    Danny
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    Post by Danny Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:20 am

    luke. wrote:
    Cornholio wrote:Yes but it doesn't make sense financially.

    Sign a player before he's developed, you pay less.

    Sign a player when he's fully developed, you pay a ton.

    It does make sense.. it's called value.
    It doesn't make sense for the club signing the player does it? Neutral
    luke.
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    Post by luke. Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:24 am

    Danny wrote:
    luke. wrote:
    Cornholio wrote:Yes but it doesn't make sense financially.

    Sign a player before he's developed, you pay less.

    Sign a player when he's fully developed, you pay a ton.

    It does make sense.. it's called value.
    It doesn't make sense for the club signing the player does it? Neutral

    If they want to pay a high price then it's their own fault. They don't HAVE to spend it.
    Drake
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    Post by Drake Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:25 am

    We signed Martin Olsson from a Swedish/Austrian team when he was 17/18 for 300k and now he's playing really well they should sign players and then keep them instead of loaning them to other clubs or do what Arsenal did with Wilshere send him to a lower team in the same league.
    Danny
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    Post by Danny Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:26 am

    luke. wrote:
    Danny wrote:
    luke. wrote:
    Cornholio wrote:Yes but it doesn't make sense financially.

    Sign a player before he's developed, you pay less.

    Sign a player when he's fully developed, you pay a ton.

    It does make sense.. it's called value.
    It doesn't make sense for the club signing the player does it? Neutral

    If they want to pay a high price then it's their own fault. They don't HAVE to spend it.
    That's why they buy the young players when they aren't as 'developed' so they generally don't spend as much Neutral
    luke.
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    Post by luke. Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:28 am

    Danny wrote:
    luke. wrote:
    Danny wrote:
    luke. wrote:
    Cornholio wrote:Yes but it doesn't make sense financially.

    Sign a player before he's developed, you pay less.

    Sign a player when he's fully developed, you pay a ton.

    It does make sense.. it's called value.
    It doesn't make sense for the club signing the player does it? Neutral

    If they want to pay a high price then it's their own fault. They don't HAVE to spend it.
    That's why they buy the young players when they aren't as 'developed' so they generally don't spend as much Neutral

    Which is why it makes sense.. their own fault for not snatching on the opportunity when it arises.
    GK01
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    Post by GK01 Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:28 am

    Like I said to you on MSN Blackskar, the facilities and coaching for these little clubs compared to the bigger clubs might not be as good, thus halting the progress of the player at a smaller club compared to a bigger club.
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    Post by Danny Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:29 am

    luke. wrote:
    Danny wrote:
    luke. wrote:
    Danny wrote:
    luke. wrote:

    It does make sense.. it's called value.
    It doesn't make sense for the club signing the player does it? Neutral

    If they want to pay a high price then it's their own fault. They don't HAVE to spend it.
    That's why they buy the young players when they aren't as 'developed' so they generally don't spend as much Neutral

    Which is why it makes sense.. their own fault for not snatching on the opportunity when it arises.
    Jesus.. it doesn't make financial sense for the big clubs to sign the players later on, as they'd end up paying a lot more Neutral
    luke.
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    Post by luke. Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:29 am

    GK01 wrote:Like I said to you on MSN Blackskar, the facilities and coaching for these little clubs compared to the bigger clubs might not be as good, thus halting the progress of the player at a smaller club compared to a bigger club.

    Football Manager has taught you well, young one.

    shifty
    luke.
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    Post by luke. Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:31 am

    Danny wrote:
    luke. wrote:
    Danny wrote:
    luke. wrote:
    Danny wrote:It doesn't make sense for the club signing the player does it? Neutral

    If they want to pay a high price then it's their own fault. They don't HAVE to spend it.
    That's why they buy the young players when they aren't as 'developed' so they generally don't spend as much Neutral

    Which is why it makes sense.. their own fault for not snatching on the opportunity when it arises.
    Jesus.. it doesn't make financial sense for the big clubs to sign the players later on, as they'd end up paying a lot more Neutral

    Hence the value part...
    blackskar
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    Post by blackskar Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:31 am

    Don't argue -_-
    Theo Filippo
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    Post by Theo Filippo Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:31 am

    luke. wrote:
    Cornholio wrote:Yes but it doesn't make sense financially.

    Sign a player before he's developed, you pay less.

    Sign a player when he's fully developed, you pay a ton.

    It does make sense.. it's called value.
    'Big' clubs and youth 58503 You come out with some stupid things luke 'Big' clubs and youth 70955 without realising too might i add
    luke.
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    Post by luke. Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:33 am

    You're talking like your buying the same quality of player for more money, but you're not. If you buy a young player for 1m, his value isn't high as he isn't well known or established.

    If you buy him when he's at his peak and is well known you're going to pay the price because his value has risen.

    Chelsea could have signed Cristian Eriksen when he was 15 but didn't, now he's becoming a star.
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    Post by Danny Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:37 am

    luke. wrote:You're talking like your buying the same quality of player for more money, but you're not. If you buy a young player for 1m, his value isn't high as he isn't well known or established.

    If you buy him when he's at his peak and is well known you're going to pay the price because his value has risen.

    Chelsea could have signed Cristian Eriksen when he was 15 but didn't, now he's becoming a star.
    That's why it wouldn't make financial sense for the big club. If you were interested in Eriksen a few years ago, he would have cost virtually nothing. Chelsea wouldn't have just gone "Oh let's wait a few years, until he becomes the next big star of European football, so we pay over the odds because loads of other clubs are interested"- along with the fact he'd be a better player, so would cost more Neutral

    EDIT: All I'm saying is it wouldn't make financial sense for the club buying the players. All it would help is the club that sells them- as they'd keep the player for longer, and get more money for him.
    blackskar
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    Post by blackskar Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:39 am

    Think you've interpreted his post wrong Luke:

    Cornholio wrote:Yes but it doesn't make sense financially.

    Sign a player before he's developed, you pay less.

    Sign a player when he's fully developed, you pay a ton.

    He's saying that yes, while it is detrimental to the lower club in the long run, it doesn't make sense financially for the bigger club to wait until he is developed.
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    Post by coolhead33 Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:41 am

    The later you leave it the more chance a different club will buy the player.
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    Post by ayvee1 Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:58 am

    coolhead33 wrote:The later you leave it the more chance a different club will buy the player.
    Exactly. The big teams don't want to miss out on picking up a wonderkid for peanuts. Just because these clubs are rich, doesn't mean they can't be smart with their money.
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    Post by Torresxvilla Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:23 pm

    Buy on the cheap, then sell for more when they develop.

    Makes sense to me.

    Sure Wilshere did well @ Bolton, but I'm sure being at the same club with talents like Fabregas/Van Persie + co. has had an impact on him also.

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    Post by Grenade Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:31 pm

    We will probably see it happen more and more when the new european financial rules come into play.
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    Post by menalawyerguy Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:10 pm

    I understand both theories and it depends on the quality of your scouts and player development apparatus. Obviously, Real Madrid and Manchester City, for examples, agree with this theory of waiting until a player is developed before acquiring him. I guess it works for them (although, I don't see any significant hardware recently). If you have gifted eyes for talent, like Fergie and his team, or Wenger and his team, then you go lean more towards the youth development model, but I think even in that case, you have to have to mix in some purchasing of fully developed talent from time to time. A group of youngsters like the 90s version of Fergie's Fledglings do not come along very often and even Fergie admits that the exclusive youth development model usually does not work. It worked for him because he caught lightening a bottle.
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    Post by Guest Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:55 pm

    It is better for the player to go to a big team but it can change on a case by case basis. People say that big teams like us don't produce any players but if you look at it atm there is quite a few former Man Utd youth players playing in the premier league Simpson (Newcastle),Bardlsey-Campbell-"Welbeck"-Richardson (All Sunderland) Ebanks Blake ect.

    Thats also not including players who were bought when they were 16 which didn't come through the youth academy but would still develop at a youth level Rossi, Pique ect.

    Compare this to clubs like Bolton, Wigan, Fulham ect. When was the last time these sorts of clubs brought through youth talent?
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    Post by menalawyerguy Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:57 pm

    Who says Man Utd doesn't produce talent? Man Utd produced three of the greatest groups of talent the game has ever seen.
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    Post by Guest Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:59 pm

    Anderson=Class wrote:It is better for the player to go to a big team but it can change on a case by case basis. People say that big teams like us don't produce any players but if you look at it atm there is quite a few former Man Utd youth players playing in the premier league Simpson (Newcastle),Bardlsey-Campbell-"Welbeck"-Richardson (All Sunderland) Ebanks Blake ect.

    Thats also not including players who were bought when they were 16 which didn't come through the youth academy but would still develop at a youth level Rossi, Pique ect.

    Compare this to clubs like Bolton, Wigan, Fulham ect. When was the last time these sorts of clubs brought through youth talent?
    Just looked at my sig 'Big' clubs and youth 58503
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    Post by Mal Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:57 pm

    Clubs sometimes see talent that others don't and the fact the big clubs would prefer to develop the players themselves.

    Chelsea shouldn't be allowed to sign young foreigners though. The Dutch government are planning on taking Chelsea to court for signing another youngster illegally rofl
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    Post by Jack Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:18 pm

    Also, when a club notices someone, they want him before he is developed and before other clubs come in.

    It's just the way it works, They all fight for the signature.
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    Post by Guest Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:23 pm

    I think there should be a rule that you can't take the player out of the region if they are below 16.


    So like Man U can't sign a kid from Yorkshire academy and shit.


    Hull would have the choice of all Yorkshire talents, you know, being the best club in Yorkshire. Cool

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