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    Boycott the BBC!? "Liverpool fans to blame for Hillsbrough"

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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:38 am

    Hillsborough: Thatcher told 'drunk fans' caused disaster
    By Jon Manel
    BBC Radio 4

    Former PM Margaret Thatcher was told a senior Merseyside police officer blamed "drunken Liverpool fans" for causing the Hillsborough disaster, confidential government documents have revealed.

    An official inquiry later found South Yorkshire Police's failure to control the crowd was to blame.

    Ninety-six football fans died after a crush on overcrowded terraces at an FA Cup Semi Final in April 1989.

    The BBC has seen the leaked papers about Britain's worst sporting tragedy.

    Letters to and from 10 Downing Street and cabinet minutes that show what Mrs, now Lady, Thatcher was discussing and being told behind the scenes have been made public for the first time by BBC Radio 4's The World at One.

    For years, the families of those who died have been calling for the release of secret government and police papers relating to the disaster.

    The government has agreed that this will happen.

    The Hillsborough Independent Panel, set up in 2009, is reviewing hundreds of documents but they are not expected to be made available to the families of those who died or to the wider public until later this year.

    It is thought there will be thousands of pages to sift through.

    The most controversial issue in the papers that the BBC has seen relates to what Mrs Thatcher was being told about the views of some senior members of the Merseyside Police Force.

    'Deeply ashamed'

    They are contained in a letter sent to the prime minister from a member of her policy unit in Downing Street. Four days after the disaster, the adviser attended a long planned meeting with the Chief Constable of Merseyside Police, the late Sir Kenneth Oxford, and some of his senior colleagues.

    It is important to bear in mind that this was written just days after the Hillsborough disaster and the views of the chief constable and those of his senior officers may well have changed over the subsequent weeks.

    According to the letter, the Merseyside chief constable said: "A key factor in causing the disaster was the fact that large numbers of Liverpool fans had turned up without tickets.

    "This was getting lost sight of in attempts to blame the police, the football authorities, etc."

    The prime minister was informed that a senior member of the Merseyside Police directly blamed supporters: "One officer, born and bred in Liverpool, said that he was deeply ashamed to say that it was drunken Liverpool fans who had caused this disaster, just as they had caused the deaths at Heysel."

    This officer is not named. Merseyside Police have declined to comment.

    'Truth must come out'

    There is nothing in the documents the BBC has seen about any briefings from South Yorkshire Police. It is possible more will become known about that when many other confidential papers are officially released in a few months time.

    Instead, we have learnt about the controversial views of some of Liverpool's own senior police officers and how, just days after the disaster, they were being passed on directly to 10 Downing Street and to Mrs Thatcher.

    A spokesman for the panel said it could not comment on the BBC story.

    Other Downing Street papers seen by the BBC provide an insight into what the prime minister was saying and discussing with her cabinet colleagues in the days after Hillsborough.

    The main issue of discussion contained in these documents was the effect the disaster was going to have on controversial legislation aimed at controlling the behaviour of football fans.

    The Football Spectators' Bill was already going through Parliament. The government was determined to continue with it, in order to introduce a national membership scheme for the sport. This would have brought in identity cards for football fans.

    According to the conclusions of the first cabinet meeting to take place after the disaster, Mrs Thatcher told her ministers that the situation on crowd safety and hooliganism at football matches "cried out for action".

    The government wanted the legislation to be passed in time for the following year's World Cup finals in Italy - to reduce the prospect of crowd trouble. The meeting also discussed using it to bring in any interim recommendations from the Hillsborough Inquiry.

    'Gravest matter'

    In another meeting with senior cabinet colleagues which took place on the same day, the prime minister said: "To abstain from taking action… would be the gravest possible matter, now that the need for this action had been so conclusively demonstrated."

    Five days later, Home Secretary Douglas Hurd met the man conducting the official inquiry into Hillsborough, Lord Justice Taylor.

    A letter written by a civil servant at the Home Office says Mr Hurd told the judge about the government's proposed new timetable to get the football spectators' legislation passed by Parliament.

    He then asked Lord Justice Taylor what he would say if the government went ahead with this and then asked "whether he was really quite sure that it was out of the question to form and express a view on the subject of membership cards in the three-and-a-half months… between the start of the inquiry… and the end of August?"

    According to the letter, Lord Justice Taylor told him that "this was possible, but he was not confident that it could be achieved".

    He said his priority was establishing the facts of what had happened at Hillsborough and could not promise to come up with any recommendations on membership cards in time to fit in with the government's political schedule.

    The prime minister was told what had happened in a briefing note from her principal private secretary, who informed her: "Lord Justice Taylor was distinctly unhelpful."

    In the end, the government did press ahead with its plans and the law was passed. However, the following year, in his report, Lord Justice Taylor said he had "grave doubts" about the feasibility of football membership cards and "serious misgivings" about the scheme's likely impact on safety. As a result of his concerns, the government dropped the scheme and it was never implemented.


    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17382896
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:41 am

    Don't know why there is outrage. It's obvious that there wouldn't have been a problem if lots of scummy Scousers without tickets hadn't turned up, made worse by all the ones with tickets probably being trollied anyway.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:47 am

    RR was right all along.

    He believed the government were keeping those documents to protect the best interests of Liverpool fans, so they didn't have to hear what they feared.

    It's looking like they've shot themselves in the foot with that online petition.

    You know it's not made up Journo shit if it makes the BBC either
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:47 am

    GOATarenka wrote:Don't know why there is outrage. It's obvious that there wouldn't have been a problem if lots of scummy Scousers without tickets hadn't turned up, made worse by all the ones with tickets probably being trollied anyway.

    Get this kid.
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    Post by Jack Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:54 am

    Well well well..
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    Post by Laurencio Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:59 am

    I'm sorry. What exactly is the outrage about, what about this necessitates any sort of boycott or hell even a voice of cocern? Internal memos that were written as part of an ongoing case some 20 odd years ago?

    I don't get it.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:04 am

    They have said what everyone else but Liverpool fans know.

    Liverpool fans killed Liverpool fans.


    I'm reading through some of the stuff on Forest pages. Very interesting. A lot of the older members were there that day as it was us who played them. Some very interesting accounts of the day indeed.

    Justice for the 96, yes. They were the ones that went to the game with tickets and got there on time, and it's most unfortunate that they never returned home from a football match.

    It's time Liverpool fans start looking for justice a bit closer to home. These documents will be interesting when they're fully released.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:06 am

    Billy Davies wrote:They have said what everyone else but Liverpool fans know.

    Liverpool fans killed Liverpool fans.


    I'm reading through some of the stuff on Forest pages. Very interesting. A lot of the older members were there that day as it was us who played them. Some very interesting accounts of the day indeed.

    Justice for the 96, yes. They were the ones that went to the game with tickets and got there on time, and it's most unfortunate that they never returned home from a football match.

    It's time Liverpool fans start looking for justice a bit closer to home. These documents will be interesting when they're fully released.

    Interesting.
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    Post by Weather130 Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:06 am

    The BBC did the investigation but they did not say that. If you are going to "boycott" anyone it should be Margaret Thatcher.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:09 am

    truth
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 2:28 pm

    liverpool fans own greediness and poorness led to their downfall where they killed their own fans
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    Post by Demoz Fri Mar 16, 2012 3:17 pm

    Interesting indeed how these documents were finally released and after all this time the blame was put solely on the police.
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    Post by FishnChips Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:15 pm

    We all know Liverpool (or most of us do anyway).
    A club who always has someone else to blame when there's fingers pointing at them. A club whose fanbase consists, for the most part, of people who would give islam extremists a run for their money; if anyone dares disagree with any of their beliefs is the enemy and deserves to rot in hell.
    Their delusion is truly remarkable aswell, they follow Dalglish and will do until the end for the simple fact of his past success with the club. Anything Dalglish says is taken as a fact and they'll do anything he says.

    The Suarez incident is a good example. After the official decision was made, someone came up with the brilliant idea of making shirts supporting Suarez and Kenny would back him in every interview he gave.
    Two Liverpool fans didn't do their club any favours when they decided to racially insult Tom Adeyemi (ironically wearing their Suarez support t-shirts), and what happens next? People were claiming the two individuals were actually not Liverpool fans and that they were set up to make them look bad.
    Others were even comparing the Suarez incident to Heysel. Rolling Eyes
    More recently, Glen Johnson came out with a masterpiece on delusion and stupidity.

    The Suarez saga just showed everyone Liverpool's true colours; Liverpool FC, offended by everything, ashamed by nothing.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:53 pm

    Cabinet Office papers from 1989 seen by the BBC show how Margaret Thatcher's government was misinformed about the cause of the Hillsborough disaster - and illustrate why the Information Commissioner demanded the disclosure of these secret documents.

    Last July the commissioner ruled that it was in the public interest for documents about the Hillsborough tragedy to be released, since it would "add to the public knowledge and understanding about the reaction of various parties to that event, including the government of the day".

    This followed a freedom of information request from the BBC that had been rejected by the Cabinet Office. That FOI case was dropped after a government pledge to publish its files on Hillsborough via an independent panel later this year.

    The BBC has seen now some of this material and on Thursday is reporting details from these documents.

    Due to these disclosures, we now know that a few days after the tragedy in April 1989 Margaret Thatcher was informed about the views of senior officers from Merseyside Police. She was told that one of them blamed drunken Liverpool supporters for the terrible incident which led to the deaths of 96 of the club's fans as a result of horrific overcrowding.

    The briefing she received also reported the assessment of the then Merseyside Chief Constable Sir Kenneth Oxford. He thought that a key factor was the presence of Liverpool fans without tickets and this was being ignored while the authorities were being blamed.

    Blame game
    Sir Kenneth was a controversial chief constable who had often clashed with local politicians over his tough policing strategy, and was at this point close to retirement.

    We already knew that private briefings accusing the Liverpool fans had been coming from South Yorkshire Police - this was the force responsible for the Hillsborough ground in Sheffield. It was later criticised for the poor crowd control that had actually been the main factor in causing the loss of life.


    Start Quote

    Margaret Thatcher's policy priority was to press ahead with compulsory identity cards for football supporters”

    What the papers show
    Lady Thatcher's then press secretary Sir Bernard Ingham has already revealed that when he accompanied her on a visit to the stadium the day after the tragedy, they were told the incident was the fault of a "tanked-up mob" of Liverpool supporters.

    What we now know is that a similar message was coming to her, not only from the force which had made catastrophic errors in policing the FA Cup semi-final, but also from the top ranks of the police force covering the locality of most of the victims - the bereaved families and the anguished survivors.

    Of course this document only reveals what was said in the period soon afterwards, and those involved may have changed their minds as further evidence came to light.

    But it is interesting to note that the position of the senior Merseyside officers conflicted with that taken at the same time by some junior ranks in the same force.

    In newspaper reports at the time, the Merseyside Police Federation was quoted as saying that the accusations against Liverpool fans were "ill-informed comments" which were "based on hearsay rather than evidence". The local federation secretary said that his phone had been "red hot" with calls from Merseyside officers demanding he speak out to "redress the balance".


    The victims of the tragedy at Sheffield's Hillsborough stadium were crushed in over-crowded pens
    In due course it was the view of the federation, rather than the chief constable, which was found to be correct by the official inquiry into the disaster by Lord Justice Taylor. He attributed the main cause of the incident to police failures in crowd control that led to a fatal crush in the Liverpool fans' section of the ground.

    The BBC's report today also contains another interesting revelation: that there was unease within the government about what a senior Downing Street official considered to be Lord Taylor's "distinctly unhelpful" response to an approach to align his inquiry schedule with the government's political timetable.

    In the wake of Hillsborough, Margaret Thatcher's policy priority was to press ahead with introducing a compulsory identity card scheme for football supporters. The government had already been planning this to tackle the hooliganism that badly affected the game in the 1980s (although the idea was never eventually implemented).

    The Home Secretary Douglas Hurd met Lord Justice Taylor soon after the judge was appointed to carry out the inquiry. Lord Hurd tried to persuade him to consider the membership scheme in time to fit in with the government's schedule for pushing forward with it. The judge couldn't guarantee this, insisting his timings would be determined by the process of establishing the facts of what happened.

    ID cards
    The current government has promised that official records relating to the disaster will be released through the Hillsborough Independent Panel. This was set up in December 2009 by Labour to work towards publishing these files, although cabinet papers were initially excluded from its terms of reference.


    Margaret Thatcher was prime minister at the time
    The panel has said it will complete its work by the end of June, although there are reports today that this deadline will be postponed. It is expected to release a very large quantity of documentation. The papers being covered today by the BBC are only a small proportion of the undisclosed material.

    Today's revelations do not constitute a "smoking gun" or lend support to any kind of conspiracy theory, but they have added valuably to the state of public knowledge about the political reaction to the terrible events at Hillsborough in April 1989.

    In brief, we have learnt that the top ranks of Merseyside Police helped to misinform Margaret Thatcher by wrongly blaming Liverpool fans. And we have learnt that there was dissatisfaction within the government at Lord Justice Taylor's refusal to adapt his inquiry to their political timetable for pressing ahead with an identity card scheme for football fans.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-17238494

    Expose the lies before Thatcher dies.

    http://hfdinfo.com/digital/
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    Post by Childish Logic Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:03 pm

    FishnChips wrote:We all know Liverpool (or most of us do anyway).
    A club who always has someone else to blame when there's fingers pointing at them. A club whose fanbase consists, for the most part, of people who would give islam extremists a run for their money; if anyone dares disagree with any of their beliefs is the enemy and deserves to rot in hell.
    Their delusion is truly remarkable aswell, they follow Dalglish and will do until the end for the simple fact of his past success with the club. Anything Dalglish says is taken as a fact and they'll do anything he says.

    The Suarez incident is a good example. After the official decision was made, someone came up with the brilliant idea of making shirts supporting Suarez and Kenny would back him in every interview he gave.
    Two Liverpool fans didn't do their club any favours when they decided to racially insult Tom Adeyemi (ironically wearing their Suarez support t-shirts), and what happens next? People were claiming the two individuals were actually not Liverpool fans and that they were set up to make them look bad.
    Others were even comparing the Suarez incident to Heysel. Rolling Eyes
    More recently, Glen Johnson came out with a masterpiece on delusion and stupidity.

    The Suarez saga just showed everyone Liverpool's true colours; Liverpool FC, offended by everything, ashamed by nothing.

    That guy was let off.......

    Show me proof of the suarez to heysel thing and johnson didn't say anything stupid.

    Bias assholes always gonna see what they want to see.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:04 pm

    NZG wrote:
    FishnChips wrote:We all know Liverpool (or most of us do anyway).
    A club who always has someone else to blame when there's fingers pointing at them. A club whose fanbase consists, for the most part, of people who would give islam extremists a run for their money; if anyone dares disagree with any of their beliefs is the enemy and deserves to rot in hell.
    Their delusion is truly remarkable aswell, they follow Dalglish and will do until the end for the simple fact of his past success with the club. Anything Dalglish says is taken as a fact and they'll do anything he says.

    The Suarez incident is a good example. After the official decision was made, someone came up with the brilliant idea of making shirts supporting Suarez and Kenny would back him in every interview he gave.
    Two Liverpool fans didn't do their club any favours when they decided to racially insult Tom Adeyemi (ironically wearing their Suarez support t-shirts), and what happens next? People were claiming the two individuals were actually not Liverpool fans and that they were set up to make them look bad.
    Others were even comparing the Suarez incident to Heysel. Rolling Eyes
    More recently, Glen Johnson came out with a masterpiece on delusion and stupidity.

    The Suarez saga just showed everyone Liverpool's true colours; Liverpool FC, offended by everything, ashamed by nothing.

    That guy was let off.......

    Show me proof of the suarez to heysel thing and johnson didn't say anything stupid.

    Bias assholes always gonna see what they want to see.

    Indeed.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:07 pm

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-hillsborough-justice-is-overdue-7574317.html
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:13 pm

    Jordo wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-hillsborough-justice-is-overdue-7574317.html

    lol @ that. "A paper has leaked, but we don't like what that paper says so we're not going to stop whinging until a paper we do like is released."
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:52 pm

    NZG wrote:
    FishnChips wrote:We all know Liverpool (or most of us do anyway).
    A club who always has someone else to blame when there's fingers pointing at them. A club whose fanbase consists, for the most part, of people who would give islam extremists a run for their money; if anyone dares disagree with any of their beliefs is the enemy and deserves to rot in hell.
    Their delusion is truly remarkable aswell, they follow Dalglish and will do until the end for the simple fact of his past success with the club. Anything Dalglish says is taken as a fact and they'll do anything he says.

    The Suarez incident is a good example. After the official decision was made, someone came up with the brilliant idea of making shirts supporting Suarez and Kenny would back him in every interview he gave.
    Two Liverpool fans didn't do their club any favours when they decided to racially insult Tom Adeyemi (ironically wearing their Suarez support t-shirts), and what happens next? People were claiming the two individuals were actually not Liverpool fans and that they were set up to make them look bad.
    Others were even comparing the Suarez incident to Heysel. Rolling Eyes
    More recently, Glen Johnson came out with a masterpiece on delusion and stupidity.

    The Suarez saga just showed everyone Liverpool's true colours; Liverpool FC, offended by everything, ashamed by nothing.

    That guy was let off.......

    Show me proof of the suarez to heysel thing and johnson didn't say anything stupid.

    Bias assholes always gonna see what they want to see.

    my friend i do not know why you continue to support liverpool fc

    do you realize if you ever went to anfrield people would swear, stare and maybe even throw/abuse you in stadium because you are arab and they are known racists. do not subject yourself to such abuse my friend insallah
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    Post by easley91 Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:23 pm

    Why boycott BBC? They're just reporting what Thatcher was told by a SENIOR POLICE OFFICER. If anything boycott the Sheffield police.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:31 pm

    easley91 wrote:Why boycott BBC? They're just reporting what Thatcher was told by a SENIOR POLICE OFFICER. If anything boycott the Sheffield police.

    It was a senior Merseyside Police officer that said it. Burned by one of their own. Either way, you can't boycott the police facepalm
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:03 pm

    So, who's the primary antagonist now RR has left?
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:10 pm

    Eternal Witcher wrote:So, who's the primary antagonist now RR has left?

    Common sense.
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    Post by Childish Logic Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:13 pm

    Could be anyone eternal. I'm expecting an unknown to come out and start.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:18 pm

    Hillsbrough wasn't a disaster. It was manslaughter.

    You killed your own, you just refuse to believe it.

    The Sun was right.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:30 pm

    Let's see, Billy is trying hard but isn't making a ripple in the waters. Robyn is just Robyn. Another must step up to the plate.
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    Post by Childish Logic Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:37 pm

    Forest isn't smart enough (srs)

    We will wait.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:43 pm

    I am not trying to emulate the success of RR.

    I am repeating comments from people that were actually there that day, and witnessed it for themselves.

    Everyone in football knows. It's just not said.
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    Post by Childish Logic Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:50 pm

    Trying so hard but failing so bad.
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    Post by Guest Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:52 pm

    NZG wrote:Trying so hard but failing so bad.

    Like a Scouser without a ticket trying to get into Hillsborough.

    AMIRITE?!?

    Boycott the BBC!? "Liverpool fans to blame for Hillsbrough" Hi5

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