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Glen Miller
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    Let's look at the facts here

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    • Post n°1

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    Post by vel Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:42 am

    Messi - 55 goals (7 penaldos)
    Statpadnaldo - 58 goals (12 penaldos)

    Take away penaldos

    Messi - 48 goals
    Penaldo - 46 goals

    Laughing
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    Ra's al Ghul
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    Post by Ra's al Ghul Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:51 am

    How many of those penalties were won by either Messi or Ronaldo?
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    • Post n°3

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    Post by FCB Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:20 am

    Ra's al Ghul wrote:How many of those penalties were won by either Messi or Ronaldo?

    And then how many of those were earned by dives by either Messi or Divenaldo? lel
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    Post by vel Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:07 am

    Ra's al Ghul wrote:How many of those penalties were won by either Messi or Ronaldo?
    rofl Divenaldo fanboys

    Let's look at the facts here Aaaaaav3xp8

    This is Divenaldo diving for a penaldo, it counts as Divenaldo winning one

    Let's look at the facts here QIgBlVt

    This is Messi playing the defence-splitting through ball to Aguero who gets fouled by the goalkeeper, it counts as Aguero winning one.

    But yet Divenaldo wins the penaldo and Messi doesn't. rofl
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    Post by vel Tue Dec 09, 2014 3:08 am

    FCB wrote:
    Ra's al Ghul wrote:How many of those penalties were won by either Messi or Ronaldo?

    And then how many of those were earned by dives by either Messi or Divenaldo? lel
    retard fanboys don't like logic
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    • Post n°6

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    Post by Ra's al Ghul Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:14 am

    vel wrote:
    Ra's al Ghul wrote:How many of those penalties were won by either Messi or Ronaldo?
    rofl Divenaldo fanboys

    Let's look at the facts here Aaaaaav3xp8

    This is Divenaldo diving for a penaldo, it counts as Divenaldo winning one

    Let's look at the facts here QIgBlVt

    This is Messi playing the defence-splitting through ball to Aguero who gets fouled by the goalkeeper, it counts as Aguero winning one.

    But yet Divenaldo wins the penaldo and Messi doesn't. rofl

    Oh, so looking at stats out of context isn't such a good idea, huh? Who would have thought? And at least Ronaldo's penalty was won in a competitive match, lol.
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    Post by vel Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:44 am

    arguing with a retard is only going to bring me down to a retard's level
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    Post by The Zlatan Tue Dec 09, 2014 5:57 am

    I don't know why you keep pretending that Messi is better than CR7. Your act's getting old now.
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    Post by FCB Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:10 am

    One thing that annoys me about Ronaldo fanboys is when they bring up the fact that Ronaldo has reached 200 goals in La Liga at a faster rate than Messi. It's like comparing apples to oranges. If you compare the same time period for both players, Messi has scored more.
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    • Post n°10

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    Post by Glen Miller Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:06 am

    Most things about Ronaldo and Messi fanboys annoy me.
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    Post by vel Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:32 am

    only fanboys here are you, Ras Al Ghul and SBSP
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    Post by SBSP Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:11 am

    Says the guy with Gaybrahimovic in his avatar. rofl rofl
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    Post by FCB Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:41 am

    I'll just post this every time I see that comment again...

    Let's look at the facts here XU6YA1e
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    • Post n°14

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    Post by Glen Miller Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:50 am

    Has anybody in this thread even claimed that Ronaldo is the better player? Confused
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    Post by Keyser Söze Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:04 pm

    Why is that Ahly? I think Vela is over exaggerating his position in this debate by putting on this act but with you it seems genuine and I don't understand why. Whatever your position is in the Ronaldo-Messi debate is I think everyone would be able to agree the disparity between the two is marginal. Only reason you'd defend one so fervently over the other was if A) One was clearly better, which isn't the case here or B) you're insecure about who's better and if that's the case then it's irrational. Why would you be insecure about have one of the top 3-4 players in football history playing for you? Seems illogical. 100% of people would be happy with a Henry/Ronaldinho type players in their team yet here you fanboys have Pele/Maradona level and it's still not enough.
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    Post by FCB Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:51 pm

    Keyser Söze wrote:Why is that Ahly? I think Vela is over exaggerating his position in this debate by putting on this act but with you it seems genuine and I don't understand why. Whatever your position is in the Ronaldo-Messi debate is I think everyone would be able to agree the disparity between the two is marginal. Only reason you'd defend one so fervently over the other was if A) One was clearly better, which isn't the case here or B) you're insecure about who's better and if that's the case then it's irrational. Why would you be insecure about have one of the top 3-4 players in football history playing for you? Seems illogical. 100% of people would be happy with a Henry/Ronaldinho type players in their team yet here you fanboys have Pele/Maradona level and it's still not enough.

    I personally believe that Messi is a better player overall than Ronaldo and has had the better career. There's no doubt that Ronaldo is a fantastic player and is among the greatest of all time. So why do I defend one over the other? A) He plays for the club I support and B) I see enough of a distinction between the two players to have a clear side to lean on. I agree with you that the difference between the two isn't that big, but I still see a distinction between the two and that Messi is the better player. I wouldn't compare myself to fanboys of either Ronaldo or Messi though. There are people like the Vela act that genuinely act and believe the stuff they say.

    My first post in this thread was a joke, going along with the Vela act. My second and third post had to do with recent comments I've seen across Facebook and other sites. The current typical Ronaldo fanboy response has been bringing up the fact that Ronaldo reached 200 La Liga goals at a faster pace than Messi. So the graph that I made and posted is a response to that. It wasn't directed to anyone on here. It was more like me thinking out loud here.
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    Post by Glen Miller Tue Dec 09, 2014 12:53 pm

    Ahly, would you be fine if Suarez came home?  Just thinking about the Henry/Ronaldinho comment.
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    Post by FCB Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:08 pm

    Glen Miller wrote:Ahly, would you be fine if Suarez came home?  Just thinking about the Henry/Ronaldinho comment.

    I need to give Suarez a season to make an assessment. I was against transfer from the beginning because of his behavior. He's a fine player. He has only scored one goal so far, which is a bit troubling, but I think it will take him some time to adapt at Barcelona. I wouldn't mind selling him back to Liverpool or any other club next season or two as long as we don't take a hit financially or he doesn't become an important part of Barcelona's squad. Because at the moment, he's no better than Pedro (at least not enough to justify the price).
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    Post by vel Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:00 pm

    I don't even think it's close. Messi is easily the better footballer and the greater player. I fuck around most of the time but this is a stance that I hold firmly. This is a year in which the sentiment of "Messi's decline" and "Ronaldo's dominance" has been propogated all throughout mainstream media. And if you just look at the raw numbers, you see this:

    Cristiano: 56 matches, 58 goals, 20 assists (1.39 goals/assists per match)
    Messi: 62 matches, 55 goals, 25 assists (1.29 goals/assists per match)

    Take away penaldos and it's equal efficiency. Remember guys, this is supposed to be Ronaldo 'at his peak' and Messi 'on the decline'. Let's look at the facts here GezrXtZ

    The difference is that unlike Cristiano, you have Messi always involving himself in the facets that never get covered by goals and assists. Messi doesn’t rely on penalties for 75% of his hat-tricks, the quality of goals from Messi is just unbelievable.

    Cristiano is playing for the best Madrid side ever and he’s still not outperforming Messi.  All you have to do is look at the context of each player’s respective situations and when you factor that in, it’s obvious who is the better footballer. Hell, just look at the past decade or so and it's clear who the better footballer is. Keep in mind that Messi is what, 3 years younger than Cristiano?

    The only things Cristiano does better than Messi is probably heading and penaldos. Messi is a more efficient scorer, a better dribbler, a better playmaker, stronger, better defensively, and better in build-up. It really blows my mind how some people arrive at these conclusions when you can simply watch them play. People really take a once-in-a-lifetime footballer like Messi for granted.


    Last edited by vel on Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by vel Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:00 pm

    Just look at the World Cup. It’s hilarious. Without playing in ideal conditions, Cristiano is absolutely terrible. The sad thing is that people claim that his performances for Portugal aren’t a fair representation of his abilities because he plays with shit teams. Cristiano is one of the worst captains in the history of Portugal. Here’s a funny stat:

    Let's look at the facts here 4wNXR9x

    Cristiano’s teammates literally create chance after chance for him yet no matter what, Portugal will always be looked at as a one-man team. You know, media propaganda.

    Let's look at the facts here 2014%2F7%2FMessipott

    Messi winning the Golden Ball is supposedly a scandal and Cristiano’s “effort” is reduced to him suffering from tendonitis. Apparently this injury could have ended Cristiano’s career. This injury mysteriously disappeared as soon as he re-joined Real Madrid and scored 25 goals in his first 10 games. As expected.


    The thing is, I know Ahly thinks that Messi is far better than Cristiano. He’s just too big of a fuckboy to admit it.
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    Post by ResurrectionRooney Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:27 pm

    Imagine what Ronaldo could have achieved if Sporting had pumped him full of drugs to eliminate natural flaws in his game.


    Last edited by ResurrectionRooney on Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:35 am; edited 2 times in total
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    • Post n°22

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    Post by vel Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:46 pm

    ResurrectionRooney wrote: what if 
    thank you, good night
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    • Post n°23

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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:30 am

    I'd say 2013 was more Ronaldo dominance and Messi decline.

    Anyway, I actually like Messi far, far more than Ronaldo, but it's disingenuous to say one is "easily" better than the other. Using your stats judging logic these are the stats from every years since 2010* which was Ronaldo's 1st full year in La Liga :

    2010
    Messi: 60 games, 57 goals, 26 assists (1.38 goals/assists a game)
    Ronaldo: 54 games, 47 goals, 21 assists (1.26 goals/assists a game)

    2011
    Messi: 64 games, 56 goals, 27 assists (1.30 goals/assists a game)
    Ronaldo: 58 games, 58 goals, 19 assists (1.33 goals/assists a game)

    2012
    Messi: 69 games, 91 goals, 22 assists (1.64 goals/assists a game)
    Ronaldo: 73 games, 63 goals, 13 assists (1.04 goals/assists a game)  

    2013
    Messi: 45 games, 42 goals, 15 assists (1.27 goals/assists a game)
    Ronaldo: 56 games, 66 goals, 15 assists( 1.45 goals/assists a game)

    2014 (so far)
    Messi: 62 matches, 55 goals, 25 assists (1.29 goals/assists a game)
    Ronaldo: 56 matches, 58 goals, 20 assists (1.39 goals/assists a game)

    So bar 2012, when Messi was put in the best performance in football history, it's been close.


    *Some of these have been compiled using transfermarkt.
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    • Post n°24

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    Post by vel Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:49 am

    That's not my logic, rather the logic of people who think Cristiano is better than Messi. A simple eye-test makes it clear who provides more value to a team and who is the better footballer. Whereas Cristiano is best off the ball and making runs to receive passes, it's Messi who is on the ball playing the passes. It's obvious which one is the tougher task.

    I'm not exactly sure where you got those yearly stats from, I'm quite certain that you have the 2013 statistics wrong for Messi. Messi played 46 games in 2013, scoring 45 goals, assisting 16 goals (1.33 goals/assists per game). Cristiano played 60 games in 2013, scoring 69 goals, assisting 15 goals (1.40 goal/assists per game). Here is a list of their assists:

    Spoiler:

    Assuming the rest of the numbers you put are accurate, it's clear that the goals and assists will never show the true disparity between the two of them. Messi took a shit on Cristiano in 2011, but it's Cristiano who is more efficient. The only people you will ever see who would say Cristiano was better in 2011 are his most ardent fanboys. I don't even think Cristiano finished in the top 3 for the Ballon d'Or in 2010, he was nowhere close to Messi.

    In 2013, Messi was playing with injuries and he wasn't fit from before the PSG game I think. Yet Barça played him because they were absolutely awful without him. You will never see Cristiano doing something similar to what Messi did against PSG in 2013. You will never see Cristiano carry Real Madrid to a league title like Leo did in 2012-13.

    Instead you'll see him score a hat-trick against Sweden in the World Cup playoffs after being awful in the World Cup qualifying. And then you'll see the media hype Portugal as a one-man team. And then you'll see the first voting extension in the history of the Ballon d'Or. And then you'll see Ribéry, the clear favourite, fall behind Cristiano, the guy who cried when Real Madrid didn't put up an elaborate campaign for him to win the Ballon d'Or.

    It's unbelievable how good of a playmaker Messi is. The 'assists' and 'created chances' stats will never do him justice. From 2012-13 you had something like this:



    From this season alone you have something like this:

    http://gfycat.com/AptPowerfulHeron
    http://gfycat.com/EducatedWarmheartedIslandcanary
    http://gfycat.com/ThirstyPepperyCaracal
    http://gfycat.com/RawSnarlingFawn
    http://gfycat.com/NegativeBlushingBabirusa
    http://gfycat.com/LikelyHandyFerret
    http://gfycat.com/NastyMiserableIberianemeraldlizard
    http://gfycat.com/WindingFlawlessAnhinga
    http://gfycat.com/PotableCoarseFritillarybutterfly
    http://gfycat.com/HealthyGrayIndianspinyloach
    http://gfycat.com/SmallTartDunnart
    http://gfycat.com/PresentFaintGorilla
    http://gfycat.com/MessyDizzyIrukandjijellyfish
    http://gfycat.com/OldHalfAztecant
    http://gfycat.com/CorruptPerfectKittiwake
    http://gfycat.com/AmusingCandidGoa
    http://gfycat.com/CalculatingRapidGodwit
    http://gfycat.com/ContentExhaustedCrane
    http://gfycat.com/PartialEmbellishedDeinonychus
    http://gfycat.com/ScaredLameGerenuk
    http://gfycat.com/ShowyAgonizingHogget
    http://gfycat.com/LinearLastIndianringneckparakeet
    http://gfycat.com/ValuableFineGrasshopper
    http://gfycat.com/ColossalImpishAngora
    http://gfycat.com/AlarmingWeightyAurochs

    Messi is probably the best player this sport has ever seen. I never got to see the likes of Pelé, Cruijff and Maradona play live so I am completely ignorant about how good they actually were on a match-by-match basis. But with Messi, he is literally the Wayne Gretzky of this sport. Leo will probably retire as the best scorer and playmaker ever.
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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:04 am

    I'm actually sure the 2013 ones are the most correct. They are from the BBC and supposedly include every officially recognised competitive game they played that year.

    You're preaching to the choir with me. I absolutely love Messi and also think he's the best in football history. It just seemed like with the posts in this thread that you were using stats to judge the two and if you do that then you can't really say one "easily" better than the other. And subjective analysis through in game performances is never going to persuade one set of fans that one is better than the other.
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    • Post n°26

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    Post by vel Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:39 am

    Just did a count from Transfermarkt.


    Champions League 2012-13:


    1. Milan
    2. Milan
    3. PSG
    4. PSG
    5. Bayern


    La Liga 2012-13

    [list=6]
    [*]Espanyol
    [*]Málaga
    [*]La Real
    [*]Osasuna
    [*]Valencia
    [*]Getafe
    [*]Granada
    [*]Sevilla
    [*]Mehdrid
    [*]Deportivo
    [*]Rayo
    [*]Celta
    [*]Athletic Club
    [*]Betis
    [*]Atlético
    [/list]

    Copa del Rey 2012-13

    [list=21]
    [*]Málaga
    [*]Málaga
    [*]Mehdrid
    [*]Mehdrid
    [/list]

    Champions League 2013-14

    [list=25]
    [*]Ajax
    [*]Milan
    [*]Milan
    [/list]

    La Liga 2013-14

    [list=28]
    [*]Levante
    [*]Valencia
    [*]Sevilla
    [*]Rayo
    [*]La Real
    [*]Almería
    [*]Osasuna
    [*]Mehdrid
    [*]Celta
    [*]Espanyol
    [*]Betis
    [/list]

    Supercopa 2013

    [list=39]
    [*]Atlético
    [*]Atlético
    [/list]

    International Friendlies 2013

    [list=41]
    [*]Guatemala
    [*]Sweden
    [/list]

    World Cup Qualifying 2013

    [list=43]
    [*]Venezuela
    [*]Bolivia
    [*]Argentina
    [*]Ecuador
    [*]Paraguay
    [/list]

    I used the MessivsRonaldo.net for the matches played. Maybe we're both wrong. think
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    • Post n°27

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    Post by vel Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:40 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:And subjective analysis through in game performances is never going to persuade one set of fans that one is better than the other.
    Only because Divenaldo fanboys are literally retarded (see: RR, SBSP, Glen Miller, Ahly)
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    • Post n°28

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    Post by Glen Miller Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:57 am

    I guess it's better being called a Ronaldo fanboy than the racial slurs you normally resort to.
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    • Post n°29

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    Post by FCB Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:35 am

    Keyser Söze wrote:Anyway, I actually like Messi far, far more than Ronaldo, but it's disingenuous to say one is "easily" better than the other.

    Not really. I think it's fairly easy to say one is better than the other. Like Vela said, Ronaldo is only better in headers (due to his height and athleticism, although Messi is pretty good at headers too) and penalties (both are good at them, Ronaldo just has the better stats). Messi is better in basically all other categories you can think of related to the game. That's why I think it's easy to make that distinction. If we were to rate each category of the game on a numerical system, Messi would be ahead by a good margin. The difference between the two players isn't like the difference between Ronaldo and the third best player though, because I think that's a huge gap.
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    • Post n°30

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    Post by Keyser Söze Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:35 am

    The BBC probably didn't count those friendlies. I didn't for the ones I got off Transfermarkt.
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