ayvee1 wrote:It's cheating if it's intentional. Knowingly and willingly breaking the rules for the benefit of you or your team is cheating IMO.
So every foul with any intent to foul is cheating?
It's not really how I think of cheating
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30 posters
Yes or No.
Poll
Would you have stopped the ball with your hands?
- [ 33 ]
[65%]
- [ 18 ]
- [35%]
Total Votes: 51
Lux-
- Posts : 9892
Age : 32
Location : North West London
Supports : Watford FC
So every foul with any intent to foul is cheating?
It's not really how I think of cheating
SBSP-
- Posts : 50010
"Cheating refers to the overt or covert breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation" (Wikipedia).
Handball = breaking rules + gaining advantage
Handball = breaking rules + gaining advantage
ayvee1- .
- Formerly known as : Prince
Posts : 5862
Age : 34
If it's an intentional foul then yes. You are breaking the rules of the game intentionally, that's cheating in my book.Lux wrote:ayvee1 wrote:It's cheating if it's intentional. Knowingly and willingly breaking the rules for the benefit of you or your team is cheating IMO.
So every foul with any intent to foul is cheating?
It's not really how I think of cheating
Guest- Guest
Lux wrote:ayvee1 wrote:It's cheating if it's intentional. Knowingly and willingly breaking the rules for the benefit of you or your team is cheating IMO.
So every foul with any intent to foul is cheating?
It's not really how I think of cheating
Of course intentionally fouling someone is cheating. You are intentionally breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage.
What's your definition of cheating?
Guest- Guest
Sleeping with a girl who isn't my current girlfriend.ahlycotc wrote:Lux wrote:ayvee1 wrote:It's cheating if it's intentional. Knowingly and willingly breaking the rules for the benefit of you or your team is cheating IMO.
So every foul with any intent to foul is cheating?
It's not really how I think of cheating
Of course intentionally fouling someone is cheating. You are intentionally breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage.
What's your definition of cheating?
Guest- Guest
Scott wrote:Sleeping with a girl who isn't my current girlfriend.ahlycotc wrote:Lux wrote:ayvee1 wrote:It's cheating if it's intentional. Knowingly and willingly breaking the rules for the benefit of you or your team is cheating IMO.
So every foul with any intent to foul is cheating?
It's not really how I think of cheating
Of course intentionally fouling someone is cheating. You are intentionally breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage.
What's your definition of cheating?
You are then intentionally breaking the rules (implied rules of a relationship) to gain an unfair advantage (more pussy while your girlfriend is trying to be loyal towards you).
Lux-
- Posts : 9892
Age : 32
Location : North West London
Supports : Watford FC
ahlycotc wrote:Of course intentionally fouling someone is cheating. You are intentionally breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage.
What's your definition of cheating?
Well, I'd expect cheaters to be banned.
Where as in game offences are punished with in the game (usually) i.e. a foul = a free kick....not the player being kicked out of the game for cheating.
Match fixing, going in the refs changing rooms....playing 12 men...sabotaging the pitch on purpose etc.....those are cheating offences imo.
Guest- Guest
Lux wrote:ahlycotc wrote:Of course intentionally fouling someone is cheating. You are intentionally breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage.
What's your definition of cheating?
Well, I'd expect cheaters to be banned.
Where as in game offences are punished with in the game (usually) i.e. a foul = a free kick....not the player being kicked out of the game for cheating.
Match fixing, going in the refs changing rooms....playing 12 men...sabotaging the pitch on purpose etc.....those are cheating offences imo.
By definition, that's still cheating. Doesn't matter what punishment is deserved. Not all committed fouls are acts of cheating. It has to be intentional to gain an unfair advantage.
You could also look at it this way: a free kick for fouling is not always gaining an unfair advantage. A free kick is a correct punishment for normal fouls; therefore, the team is not gaining an unfair advantage.
Guest- Guest
everyone that voted yes is a fucking disgrace.
Guest- Guest
SuperManUtd wrote:everyone that voted yes is a fucking disgrace.
dena-
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Location : only place to find base heads and hot women
ahlycotc wrote:Scott wrote:Sleeping with a girl who isn't my current girlfriend.ahlycotc wrote:Lux wrote:ayvee1 wrote:It's cheating if it's intentional. Knowingly and willingly breaking the rules for the benefit of you or your team is cheating IMO.
So every foul with any intent to foul is cheating?
It's not really how I think of cheating
Of course intentionally fouling someone is cheating. You are intentionally breaking the rules to gain an unfair advantage.
What's your definition of cheating?
You are then intentionally breaking the rules (implied rules of a relationship) to gain an unfair advantage (more pussy while your girlfriend is trying to be loyal towards you).
ResurrectionRooney-
- Posts : 17681
Supports : United
SuperManUtd wrote:everyone that voted yes is a fucking disgrace.
Guest- Guest
Yes, Handballing is technically cheating, but it's not cheating by the rulebooks - It's just a normal foul like any other. That's what I think Lux is trying to say.
Lux-
- Posts : 9892
Age : 32
Location : North West London
Supports : Watford FC
polska. wrote:Yes, Handballing is technically cheating, but it's not cheating by the rulebooks - It's just a normal foul like any other. That's what I think Lux is trying to say.
Yup
Really though, that's the point. In the rules there's no difference between a hand ball in the middle of the field and one right in front of the goal. The difference is the goalscoring opportunity, but even then not all fouls committed when there's a goalscoring opportunity are done with intent, so neither part of hand balling infront of the goal is cheating.
If you wanted it to be cheating, you'd need to change the rules of the game, otherwise it'd just be typical FIFA punishing on one off occasions in big matches but never following through.
Guest- Guest
Not all handballs are acts of cheating. It all depends on the player's intention. Are they intentionally handballing to gain an unfair advantage? If yes, then it's cheating. That's why not all handballs are punishable by yellow or red cards.
Guest- Guest
ahlycotc wrote:Not all handballs are acts of cheating. It all depends on the player's intention. Are they intentionally handballing to gain an unfair advantage? If yes, then it's cheating. That's why not all handballs are punishable by yellow or red cards.
I don't think you understand that that means fuck all when it happens in the box.
This is how I break it down, quite simple actually:
Hand + Ball = Handball = Foul = not in box = Free Kick
Intention + Hand + Ball = Intentional Handball = Foul = not in Box = Yellow Card + Free Kick
Defensive Team + Hand + Ball = Defensive Handball = Foul = in the Box = Red Card + Penalty
Offensive Team + Hand + Ball = Offensive Handball = Foul = in the Box = Yellow Card + Goal Kick
SBSP-
- Posts : 50010
It's okay, he's a referee. He's not supposed to know these things.
Lux-
- Posts : 9892
Age : 32
Location : North West London
Supports : Watford FC
ahlycotc wrote:Not all handballs are acts of cheating. It all depends on the player's intention. Are they intentionally handballing to gain an unfair advantage? If yes, then it's cheating. That's why not all handballs are punishable by yellow or red cards.
The definition of whether something deserves a yellow/red or not isn't "They are cheating or not?"....and almost every foul most likely gives you an unfair advantage.
You see it based on the intention of the player, but for me fouls are a part of the game....if you regularly play football as a defender you'd understand that
That said, you're a referee so you have the opposite perspective.I wouldn't even say diving is cheating. I don't see it as cheating because you're fooling the ref..... I think of it as the players responsibility is to win the game.....and it's the refs responsibility to uphold the rules of the game. The player is doing his best to win the game, it's not his fault the ref is incapable of making the right decision. Sure, it's not honourable but when they're getting paid massive wages and there's so much at stake, I wouldn't expect every player to care.
The responsibility ultimately lies with FIFA
SBSP-
- Posts : 50010
I could take what you just said and say, "It's okay people murder and steal because they're trying to make as much money and have the best chance of living as possible. It's the police's problem with which to deal and I don't mind their doing it."
Guest- Guest
polska. wrote:ahlycotc wrote:Not all handballs are acts of cheating. It all depends on the player's intention. Are they intentionally handballing to gain an unfair advantage? If yes, then it's cheating. That's why not all handballs are punishable by yellow or red cards.
I don't think you understand that that means fuck all when it happens in the box.
This is how I break it down, quite simple actually:
Hand + Ball = Handball = Foul = not in box = Free Kick
Intention + Hand + Ball = Intentional Handball = Foul = not in Box = Yellow Card + Free Kick
Defensive Team + Hand + Ball = Defensive Handball = Foul = in the Box = Red Card + Penalty
Offensive Team + Hand + Ball = Offensive Handball = Foul = in the Box = Yellow Card + Goal Kick
Too many variables and equations, so let me simplify. First, we will assume that we know what constitutes a handball.
Any handball committed with intention is punishable with a yellow card. A handball committed (with intention or not) that denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity is punishable by a red card. A handball that is committed without intention or denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity is not punished by any card, just a direct freekick.
It does not really matter if the handball occurred in the box or not. A red card for handball is given only if it is denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity.
Lux wrote:ahlycotc wrote:Not all handballs are acts of cheating. It all depends on the player's intention. Are they intentionally handballing to gain an unfair advantage? If yes, then it's cheating. That's why not all handballs are punishable by yellow or red cards.
The definition of whether something deserves a yellow/red or not isn't "They are cheating or not?"....and almost every foul most likely gives you an unfair advantage.
You see it based on the intention of the player, but for me fouls are a part of the game....if you regularly play football as a defender you'd understand that
I wouldn't even say diving is cheating. I don't see it as cheating because you're fooling the ref..... I think of it as the players responsibility is to win the game.....and it's the refs responsibility to uphold the rules of the game. The player is doing his best to win the game, it's not his fault the ref is incapable of making the right decision. Sure, it's not honourable but when they're getting paid massive wages and there's so much at stake, I wouldn't expect every player to care.
The responsibility ultimately lies with FIFA
Like I said earlier, not all fouls are cheating, but all cheating are fouls (if during play). Classing something as cheating is not in the rule book, it's subjective. A lot of fouls are properly punished (i.e. direct freekick, yellow card, red card, etc.). So I understand if you don't agree with me on calling a specific act as cheating.
If I intentionally stick my hand up to stop a shot on goal from going in, that's cheating imo. But if I intentionally foul someone in the middle of the park to prevent a counterattack (aka tactical foul), that's not really cheating in my book.
Now it's shocking to hear that you view diving as not cheating. I think it's one of the most agreed upon concepts. Diving should have no place in football. It shouldn't matter how much you get paid or how important the match is, diving is cheating.
Sure the referee is responsible for enforcing the rules, but referees can and do miss things. It doesn't change the fact that an act is considered cheating. If you murder someone and the judge claims you are not guilty, you are still a murderer by definition.
Guest- Guest
SBSP wrote:I could take what you just said and say, "It's okay people murder and steal because they're trying to make as much money and have the best chance of living as possible. It's the police's problem with which to deal and I don't mind their doing it."
Great minds think alike.
Guest- Guest
Your right, if a handball happens at the edge of the box for example, and is unintentional, it's a yellow card and usually a penalty. (Though i've seen ref's give very close direct free kicks)
Guest- Guest
SBSP wrote:As do ours.
What? That's what I was referring to. We both took Lux's statement as murdering is OK if you aren't found guilty and get payed a lot of money.
SBSP-
- Posts : 50010
You said "Great minds think alike," so I said, "As do ours." Think about it for a second.ahlycotc wrote:SBSP wrote:As do ours.
What? That's what I was referring to. We both took Lux's statement as murdering is OK if you aren't found guilty and get payed a lot of money.
Guest- Guest
Yes, but by using the phrase "great minds think alike"...you know what, forget it. It's pointless to discuss it.
SBSP-
- Posts : 50010
I was implying our minds are not great which you've just proved. 
Lux-
- Posts : 9892
Age : 32
Location : North West London
Supports : Watford FC
ahlycotc wrote:Like I said earlier, not all fouls are cheating, but all cheating are fouls (if during play). Classing something as cheating is not in the rule book, it's subjective. A lot of fouls are properly punished (i.e. direct freekick, yellow card, red card, etc.). So I understand if you don't agree with me on calling a specific act as cheating.
If I intentionally stick my hand up to stop a shot on goal from going in, that's cheating imo. But if I intentionally foul someone in the middle of the park to prevent a counterattack (aka tactical foul), that's not really cheating in my book.
Now it's shocking to hear that you view diving as not cheating. I think it's one of the most agreed upon concepts. Diving should have no place in football. It shouldn't matter how much you get paid or how important the match is, diving is cheating.
Sure the referee is responsible for enforcing the rules, but referees can and do miss things. It doesn't change the fact that an act is considered cheating. If you murder someone and the judge claims you are not guilty, you are still a murderer by definition.
Diving....tactical fouls......they're all the same thing. One being more girly than the other isn't going to cloud my judgement......if you want diving out the game, then I'd say it's silly to say that tactical fouls are fine. From my view, tactical fouls are part of the game....I wouldn't say diving is and I don't condone it....but I wouldn't say it's cheating, it's a tactic to fool the ref into giving you an advantage. Is it unfair that the officials/technology etc is not good enough to deal with the tactic? Might as well say that Barcelona are cheating until teams can deal with them
. No but seriously.....I'd say it's more a point of doing things to make diving not worthwhile, i.e. ....make it so that people who dive will not get the decision they want right there, right then...rather than giving them a ban after the game is over......SBSP wrote:I could take what you just said and say, "It's okay people murder and steal because they're trying to make as much money and have the best chance of living as possible. It's the police's problem with which to deal and I don't mind their doing it."
If there was no police force then I would expect people to murder and steal. The fact is....it IS the police's problem to deal with it....that's their job. You might hope people might not do it.....but either you prevent it or you give them a warning, a yellow card jail sentence for a red card execution......and when it comes down to it the police will look to themselves as to how to stop it.
Not sure it's really related, but it's a bit like the respect campaign. I think it's naive to expect people to respect the refs when they aren't getting the decisions right. FIFA should respect the players/fans/managers by making sure the game is officiated properly....then they'll get the respect they want.
If officials do their jobs properly, then the players will respect them and not dive.
ResurrectionRooney-
- Posts : 17681
Supports : United
ahlycotc wrote:polska. wrote:ahlycotc wrote:Not all handballs are acts of cheating. It all depends on the player's intention. Are they intentionally handballing to gain an unfair advantage? If yes, then it's cheating. That's why not all handballs are punishable by yellow or red cards.
I don't think you understand that that means fuck all when it happens in the box.
This is how I break it down, quite simple actually:
Hand + Ball = Handball = Foul = not in box = Free Kick
Intention + Hand + Ball = Intentional Handball = Foul = not in Box = Yellow Card + Free Kick
Defensive Team + Hand + Ball = Defensive Handball = Foul = in the Box = Red Card + Penalty
Offensive Team + Hand + Ball = Offensive Handball = Foul = in the Box = Yellow Card + Goal Kick
Too many variables and equations, so let me simplify. First, we will assume that we know what constitutes a handball.
Any handball committed with intention is punishable with a yellow card. A handball committed (with intention or not) that denies an obvious goal scoring opportunity is punishable by a red card. A handball that is committed without intention or denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity is not punished by any card, just a direct freekick.
It does not really matter if the handball occurred in the box or not. A red card for handball is given only if it is denying an obvious goal scoring opportunity.
Ahly, are you actually employed as a referee? Because you're got that badly wrong. Touching the ball with the hand is never a foul unless it is intentional, irrespective of whether it denies a goalscoring opportunity. Handball usually isn't a yellow card unless it constitutes unsporting behaviour. Seriously, go and read the rules again, I'm amazed to read that post from you.