Liverpool FC Official Thread

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:I hope your season collapses and you drop out of the top 4.

I would hope for Liverpool's season to collapse.

But it already has



No hard feelings Scott, it was there for the taking.

For me, if we win the Cup double, then it's not a failure of a season. It's a pretty decent one. 2 trophies added to our huge haul.

All is good and well with being in the Champions League every season, but what have you got to show for it? One final? You don't even sign big players. At least when we were in the Champions League, we won it in 2005 and got to the final in 2007, as well as in between them, we went pretty far in the competition, usually getting knocked out in the Quarter Finals or Semi Finals. We also won the FA Cup.

I mean, at the end of the day, football is all about winning trophies. In the last few years, you've only won the FA Cup. We've won the biggest trophy going, which is the European Cup, along with the FA Cup and the Carling Cup, and we're possibly going to add another FA Cup to that soon. That's 3 Trophies (possibly 4) to Arsenal's 1.

We've even finished 2nd in the League more recently than you have.

So don't start becoming cocky about Arsenal just yet. You haven't been better than us for very long at all.

This season has been an embarrassing failure. Fuck the cups, that's just something to fall back on, a little silver lining. Something that could ensure that the next season will be just another dreadful one.

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:For me, if we win the Cup double, then it's not a failure of a season. It's a pretty decent one. 2 trophies added to our huge haul.

All is good and well with being in the Champions League every season, but what have you got to show for it? One final? You don't even sign big players. At least when we were in the Champions League, we won it in 2005 and got to the final in 2007, as well as in between them, we went pretty far in the competition, usually getting knocked out in the Quarter Finals or Semi Finals. We also won the FA Cup.

I mean, at the end of the day, football is all about winning trophies. In the last few years, you've only won the FA Cup. We've won the biggest trophy going, which is the European Cup, along with the FA Cup and the Carling Cup, and we're possibly going to add another FA Cup to that soon. That's 3 Trophies (possibly 4) to Arsenal's 1.

We've even finished 2nd in the League more recently than you have.

So don't start becoming cocky about Arsenal just yet. You haven't been better than us for very long at all.

In terms of finances, which is what you need to be able to compete again, it's a massive failure. A fourth place is worth 120 carling cup trophies, and 6-7 FA Cup trophies. Finishing 8th is worth £9.1M, while top four guarantees £12M-£15M. A carling cup winner gets £100k, an FA Cup winner gets £1.8M, with roughly £900k being awarded the runner up.

If you want to become a big club again you need to aim higher than that, and a good league position is vital for continued success. As things stand Manchester United who were knocked out of the Champions League and Europa League, as well as the Carling cup and FA Cup stand to make £68-72M on prize money alone, compared to Liverpool's £50-51M in prize money. Assuming of course that Liverpool win the FA Cup, without that you are looking at less than £50M. And that's not even accounting for other revenue sources.

By not finishing fourth, and not getting your ass handed to you in Europe, you are missing out on ~£20M, not including TV Revenue, which can exceed £10-20M on its own. Basically missing out on two players of Luis Suarez caliber.

Eternal Witcher wrote:This season has been an embarrassing failure. Fuck the cups, that's just something to fall back on, a little silver lining. Something that could ensure that the next season will be just another dreadful one.

Don't you mean won't be?

The Bat-Man wrote:

Eternal Witcher wrote:This season has been an embarrassing failure. Fuck the cups, that's just something to fall back on, a little silver lining. Something that could ensure that the next season will be just another dreadful one.

Don't you mean won't be?

I think he means that if we win 2 cups, nothing will change (like Kenny will keep his job) so next season will be as disappointing as this years.

Laurencio wrote:

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:For me, if we win the Cup double, then it's not a failure of a season. It's a pretty decent one. 2 trophies added to our huge haul.

All is good and well with being in the Champions League every season, but what have you got to show for it? One final? You don't even sign big players. At least when we were in the Champions League, we won it in 2005 and got to the final in 2007, as well as in between them, we went pretty far in the competition, usually getting knocked out in the Quarter Finals or Semi Finals. We also won the FA Cup.

I mean, at the end of the day, football is all about winning trophies. In the last few years, you've only won the FA Cup. We've won the biggest trophy going, which is the European Cup, along with the FA Cup and the Carling Cup, and we're possibly going to add another FA Cup to that soon. That's 3 Trophies (possibly 4) to Arsenal's 1.

We've even finished 2nd in the League more recently than you have.

So don't start becoming cocky about Arsenal just yet. You haven't been better than us for very long at all.

In terms of finances, which is what you need to be able to compete again, it's a massive failure. A fourth place is worth 120 carling cup trophies, and 6-7 FA Cup trophies. Finishing 8th is worth £9.1M, while top four guarantees £12M-£15M. A carling cup winner gets £100k, an FA Cup winner gets £1.8M, with roughly £900k being awarded the runner up.

If you want to become a big club again you need to aim higher than that, and a good league position is vital for continued success. As things stand Manchester United who were knocked out of the Champions League and Europa League, as well as the Carling cup and FA Cup stand to make £68-72M on prize money alone, compared to Liverpool's £50-51M in prize money. Assuming of course that Liverpool win the FA Cup, without that you are looking at less than £50M. And that's not even accounting for other revenue sources.

By not finishing fourth, and not getting your ass handed to you in Europe, you are missing out on ~£20M, not including TV Revenue, which can exceed £10-20M on its own. Basically missing out on two players of Luis Suarez caliber.

I find this to be an unneeded and incorrect jab at us.

Milan only beat us by 1 goal over the tie. We handed their ass to them at the Emirates.

Chris wrote:Milan only beat us by 1 goal over the tie. We handed their ass to them at the Emirates.

Exactly, if Arsenal of all teams can perform like that in a cup, it would be folly to suggest we would get routed by 'bigger teams'. Would place 50 quid on getting to the semi-final at least next season, if we had finished fourth this season.

Eternal Witcher wrote:

Laurencio wrote:

In terms of finances, which is what you need to be able to compete again, it's a massive failure. A fourth place is worth 120 carling cup trophies, and 6-7 FA Cup trophies. Finishing 8th is worth £9.1M, while top four guarantees £12M-£15M. A carling cup winner gets £100k, an FA Cup winner gets £1.8M, with roughly £900k being awarded the runner up.

If you want to become a big club again you need to aim higher than that, and a good league position is vital for continued success. As things stand Manchester United who were knocked out of the Champions League and Europa League, as well as the Carling cup and FA Cup stand to make £68-72M on prize money alone, compared to Liverpool's £50-51M in prize money. Assuming of course that Liverpool win the FA Cup, without that you are looking at less than £50M. And that's not even accounting for other revenue sources.

By not finishing fourth, and not getting your ass handed to you in Europe, you are missing out on ~£20M, not including TV Revenue, which can exceed £10-20M on its own. Basically missing out on two players of Luis Suarez caliber.

I find this to be an unneeded and incorrect jab at us.

Was more of a jab against us actually, considering we got our ass handed to us in Europe and that resulted in £20M+ in extra revenue. It's basically worth £1M+ suffering through an abysmal performance against Basel. Which is what it is worth to win the FA Cup.

If you do well in Europe it can be worth as much as £40M+

Income doesn't affect your trophy count though, does it? We're currently the most decorated Club in English football, and I want it to stay that way.

We should've finished higher in the league anyway, if you look at our performances. We've just been dreadfully shit in front of goal. I think I read somewhere that we have the 2nd highest 'chances created' stat, and we've hit the woodwork 30 times in the league alone.

Signing a prolific striker could be all we need.

But then again, anyone who signs for us suddenly turns into someone who cannot finish.

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:Income doesn't affect your trophy count though, does it? We're currently the most decorated Club in English football, and I want it to stay that way.

We should've finished higher in the league anyway, if you look at our performances. We've just been dreadfully shit in front of goal. I think I read somewhere that we have the 2nd highest 'chances created' stat, and we've hit the woodwork 30 times in the league alone.

Signing a prolific striker could be all we need.

But then again, anyone who signs for us suddenly turns into someone who cannot finish.

Yes it does actually. Rich clubs have a tendency to win trophies as a result of having money to pay for and buy exceptional players. The less money you make a year, the lesser quality players you can afford. Finishing 8th 3 years in a row, while winning the FA Cup and Carling cup every year results in a "loss" of £70-80M, if you do poorly in Europe, in excess of £100M+ if you do well, and that's just for finishing fourth.

So that's 3 Luis Suarez quality players, including "competetive" wages that you could have bought and paid for, to enable you to compete on a higher level, which would in turn enable you to earn more money and sign better players, which would in turn result in better football and better chances at winning trophies.

And that is not taking into account revenue from fan markets which has a tendency to increase sharply for CL participation.

Laurencio wrote:

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:Income doesn't affect your trophy count though, does it? We're currently the most decorated Club in English football, and I want it to stay that way.

We should've finished higher in the league anyway, if you look at our performances. We've just been dreadfully shit in front of goal. I think I read somewhere that we have the 2nd highest 'chances created' stat, and we've hit the woodwork 30 times in the league alone.

Signing a prolific striker could be all we need.

But then again, anyone who signs for us suddenly turns into someone who cannot finish.

Yes it does actually. Rich clubs have a tendency to win trophies as a result of having money to pay for and buy exceptional players. The less money you make a year, the lesser quality players you can afford. Finishing 8th 3 years in a row, while winning the FA Cup and Carling cup every year results in a "loss" of £70-80M, if you do poorly in Europe, in excess of £100M+ if you do well, and that's just for finishing fourth.

So that's 3 Luis Suarez quality players, including "competetive" wages that you could have bought and paid for, to enable you to compete on a higher level, which would in turn enable you to earn more money and sign better players, which would in turn result in better football and better chances at winning trophies.

We're not exactly struggling for cash, as you can see with our spend last January and last summer. We could've bought 3 Luis Suarez quality players with the amount we spent on Carroll, Downing and Henderson.

Also, it doesn't work like that. "3 Luis Suarez quality players" ... well, who were the 3 Luis Suarez quality players that Man United signed the last 3 summers? I don't see any.

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:

Laurencio wrote:

Yes it does actually. Rich clubs have a tendency to win trophies as a result of having money to pay for and buy exceptional players. The less money you make a year, the lesser quality players you can afford. Finishing 8th 3 years in a row, while winning the FA Cup and Carling cup every year results in a "loss" of £70-80M, if you do poorly in Europe, in excess of £100M+ if you do well, and that's just for finishing fourth.

So that's 3 Luis Suarez quality players, including "competetive" wages that you could have bought and paid for, to enable you to compete on a higher level, which would in turn enable you to earn more money and sign better players, which would in turn result in better football and better chances at winning trophies.

We're not exactly struggling for cash, as you can see with our spend last January and last summer. We could've bought 3 Luis Suarez quality players with the amount we spent on Carroll, Downing and Henderson.

Also, it doesn't work like that. "3 Luis Suarez quality players" ... well, who were the 3 Luis Suarez quality players that Man United signed the last 3 summers? I don't see any.

Why would Manchester United buy Luis Suarez quality players when they have better players?

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:

Laurencio wrote:

Yes it does actually. Rich clubs have a tendency to win trophies as a result of having money to pay for and buy exceptional players. The less money you make a year, the lesser quality players you can afford. Finishing 8th 3 years in a row, while winning the FA Cup and Carling cup every year results in a "loss" of £70-80M, if you do poorly in Europe, in excess of £100M+ if you do well, and that's just for finishing fourth.

So that's 3 Luis Suarez quality players, including "competetive" wages that you could have bought and paid for, to enable you to compete on a higher level, which would in turn enable you to earn more money and sign better players, which would in turn result in better football and better chances at winning trophies.

We're not exactly struggling for cash, as you can see with our spend last January and last summer. We could've bought 3 Luis Suarez quality players with the amount we spent on Carroll, Downing and Henderson.

Also, it doesn't work like that. "3 Luis Suarez quality players" ... well, who were the 3 Luis Suarez quality players that Man United signed last summer? I don't see any.

Yeah, the amount you spent on those doesn't mean that you have that kind of money every season. Your owners were aiming for a top four finish this season, it is natural to spend big in order to get to that. Whether or not you spend it wisely is besides the point. You spent £30M net, (according to transfer league) with a top four finish that would have made a £30-40M profit which could be reinvested. Instead you end up with £10M. Financially you can't continue that pattern.

Our quality signing was easily David De Gea, currently one of the best goalkeepers in the league. According to the stats he's actually the best too. The fact that we are top of the league shows that heavy investment wasn't really all that necessary after all, although it is possible that we were saving money for this summer, I don't really know. However, having the income to pay for the players and doing so are two different things, and not really relevant.

You are missing out on a mountain of money and opportunities by doing poorly in the league. It's not an opinion, it's fact.

It may be a fact, but it doesn't mean I can't be happy with us adding trophies to our haul.

It's so easy being a Man United fan, you can just look down on everyone 24/7. Good for you.

Henderson and downing are awful. At least Carroll's improving (slightly)

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:It may be a fact, but it doesn't mean I can't be happy with us adding trophies to our haul.

It's so easy being a Man United fan, you can just look down on everyone 24/7. Good for you.

I never said you can't be happy with it, I'm just showing you that in order to compete at the top, the league is far more important than cup wins. Winning a cup is always great, but when you are doing poorly in the league then it's not really going to make up for it. Fourth place + the trophies would have been a phenomenal season.

I'm not looking down on anyone, I'm looking at the numbers, and the numbers say that you are losing more than you gain. I'm sorry if thinking Liverpool should be competing with Manchester United and Manchester City is condescending, but that's where I think you should be, not scurrying around in mid-table. You're too big for that.

Bogdan wrote:Henderson and downing are awful. At least Carroll's improving (slightly)

I'd say Downing was improving a bit, he seems to be a real confidence player, that's why he was shit for ages and he's been okay recently, since he scored a couple of goals

Laurencio wrote:

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:It may be a fact, but it doesn't mean I can't be happy with us adding trophies to our haul.

It's so easy being a Man United fan, you can just look down on everyone 24/7. Good for you.

I never said you can't be happy with it, I'm just showing you that in order to compete at the top the league is far more important than cup wins. Winning a cup is always great, but when you are doing poorly in the league then it's not really going to make up for it. Fourth place + the trophies would have been a phenomenal season.

I'm not looking down on anyone, I'm looking at the numbers, and the numbers say that you are losing more than you gain. I'm sorry if thinking Liverpool should be competing with Manchester United and Manchester City is condescending, but that's where I think you should be, not scurrying around in mid-table. You're too big for that.

Come next season I think we'll officially be a midtable club

In response to the claim that Arsenal do not benefit from regular qualification for the Champions League, they attract plenty of decent players through the fact that they qualify for the Champions League every season. Young players in demand like Alex Chamberlain, Aaron Ramsey, Samir Nasri and Theo Walcott choose us despite being wanted by some of Europe's sides. I know some of them haven't turned out to be that great but they were still very popular when they were younger and we got them mainly because of the way we play football and the fact that we are almost guaranteed to qualify for the Champions League every season. Liverpool are simply not able to attract the best young talent. I'm sure any ambitious young player would be more attracted by the prospect of playing against Barcelona at the Camp Nou than win a cup that hardly anyone takes seriously. And from a financial perspective, you aren't capable of competing with Europe's richest clubs so it just becomes very difficult to compete in the market for talented youngsters.

Mr. Kurtz wrote:In response to the claim that Arsenal do not benefit from regular qualification for the Champions League, they attract plenty of decent players through the fact that they qualify for the Champions League every season. Young players in demand like Alex Chamberlain, Aaron Ramsey, Samir Nasri and Theo Walcott choose us despite being wanted by some of Europe's sides. I know some of them haven't turned out to be that great but they were still very popular when they were younger and we got them mainly because of the way we play football and the fact that we are almost guaranteed to qualify for the Champions League every season. Liverpool are simply not able to attract the best young talent. I'm sure any ambitious young player would be more attracted by the prospect of playing against Barcelona at the Camp Nou than win a cup that hardly anyone takes seriously. And from a financial perspective, you aren't capable of competing with Europe's richest clubs so it just becomes very difficult to compete in the market for talented youngsters.

But your best players leave to win trophies.

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:

Mr. Kurtz wrote:In response to the claim that Arsenal do not benefit from regular qualification for the Champions League, they attract plenty of decent players through the fact that they qualify for the Champions League every season. Young players in demand like Alex Chamberlain, Aaron Ramsey, Samir Nasri and Theo Walcott choose us despite being wanted by some of Europe's sides. I know some of them haven't turned out to be that great but they were still very popular when they were younger and we got them mainly because of the way we play football and the fact that we are almost guaranteed to qualify for the Champions League every season. Liverpool are simply not able to attract the best young talent. I'm sure any ambitious young player would be more attracted by the prospect of playing against Barcelona at the Camp Nou than win a cup that hardly anyone takes seriously. And from a financial perspective, you aren't capable of competing with Europe's richest clubs so it just becomes very difficult to compete in the market for talented youngsters.

But your best players leave to win trophies.

How is that even remotely relevant to anything I said?

Mr. Kurtz wrote:

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:


But your best players leave to win trophies.

How is that even remotely relevant to anything I said?

It contradicts your argument.

Winning the FA Cup will help attract talent and it adds to our trophy haul, but being in the CL is where you get the best youngsters we all know that.

But at this point we have to focus on the cups. If we win the FA Cup thats 2 trophies and we can push on from there. There's nothing wrong with being positive about it, it's not as if Scott is ignoring the fact that we're horrible shit in the league.

Get a domestic cup double and go out and get a better striker (Soldado), a better winger, get Lucas back and we look set to start the new year. Plus you add in that Harry will be gone and Spurs may crumble, Arsenal wont' score when RVP leaves and we are back in with a shot.

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:

Mr. Kurtz wrote:

How is that even remotely relevant to anything I said?

It contradicts your argument.

No, it does not. It doesn't even come close to doing anything of the sort.

Laurencio wrote:

ScottyBoy_1989 wrote:Income doesn't affect your trophy count though, does it? We're currently the most decorated Club in English football, and I want it to stay that way.

We should've finished higher in the league anyway, if you look at our performances. We've just been dreadfully shit in front of goal. I think I read somewhere that we have the 2nd highest 'chances created' stat, and we've hit the woodwork 30 times in the league alone.

Signing a prolific striker could be all we need.

But then again, anyone who signs for us suddenly turns into someone who cannot finish.

Yes it does actually. Rich clubs have a tendency to win trophies as a result of having money to pay for and buy exceptional players. The less money you make a year, the lesser quality players you can afford. Finishing 8th 3 years in a row, while winning the FA Cup and Carling cup every year results in a "loss" of £70-80M, if you do poorly in Europe, in excess of £100M+ if you do well, and that's just for finishing fourth.

So that's 3 Luis Suarez quality players, including "competetive" wages that you could have bought and paid for, to enable you to compete on a higher level, which would in turn enable you to earn more money and sign better players, which would in turn result in better football and better chances at winning trophies.

And that is not taking into account revenue from fan markets which has a tendency to increase sharply for CL participation.

Then why do Arsenal never win any trophies? They consistently finish in the top 4.

I'll get the home shirt, not sure about the other ones.

The black one looks nice.