Islamist Terror Attacks in France

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    ResurrectionRooney
     
     

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    Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by ResurrectionRooney on Fri Jan 09, 2015 10:21 pm

    Anyone following this manhunt? I'm firmly on the side of Charlie Hebdo in this, the rights to freedom of speech and satire are sacrosanct must not be infringed by backward violent individuals or ideologies, people who refuse to accept these should leave the European Union and go elsewhere. I've found the reaction with pencil based protests really inspiring.

    Hopefully there will be no sympathisers with these terrorists on here, but it would not surprise me.

    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by Keyser Söze on Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:43 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:Hopefully there will be no sympathisers with these terrorists on here, but it would not surprise me.
    SBSP can be a shifty one.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by FCB on Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:56 am

    Such a troll post. No sane person would support or advocate the murder of civilians or even the people responsible for making fun of Islam or anyone.

    I don't know if this is true or not (I didn't do my check on it yet), but there was a Muslim officer that died because of the attacks.

    At the same time, I don't support the actions of the newspaper because it only serves to anger people with such actions. That doesn't mean they should be killed for their actions though.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by ResurrectionRooney on Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:10 am

    FCB wrote:Such a troll post. No sane person would support or advocate the murder of civilians or even the people responsible for making fun of Islam or anyone.

    I don't know if this is true or not (I didn't do my check on it yet), but there was a Muslim officer that died because of the attacks.

    At the same time, I don't support the actions of the newspaper because it only serves to anger people with such actions. That doesn't mean they should be killed for their actions though.

    It's not about sanity, it's about incorrect beliefs, for example, that to depict a long dead man in an insulting cartoon is an extreme moral wrong.  If that belief were true then the killings would be justifiable.  Do you not hold that belief?
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by FCB on Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:30 am

    Just because something is immoral doesn't mean the proper punishment is death.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by ResurrectionRooney on Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:42 am

    If someone committed what I consider an extreme moral wrong I'd be quite happy to see them shuffle off their mortal coil, I'd think they'd got what they deserved if they were killed for it.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by SBSP on Sun Jan 11, 2015 10:39 am

    You're thick as fuck

    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by Ra's al Ghul on Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:08 pm

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:If someone committed what I consider an extreme moral wrong I'd be quite happy to see them shuffle off their mortal coil, I'd think they'd got what they deserved if they were killed for it.
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

    Who said anything about making offensive cartoons being an extreme moral wrong? It's unpleasant and propulsive of an already turbulent climate of discrimination, but it simply isn't an extreme moral wrong and his right to say such a thing should be protected. That's the whole point of that Voltaire non-quote that's been doing the rounds, that you don't have to agree with what a person says in order to fight for his right to say it. Putting aside the religious issue for a second since it's very contentious, let's examine this issue through the prism of race. Is it remotely arguable that making a cartoon of a black person swinging from a tree and eating a banana is something that is morally wrong? If so, is that something that is then worthy of death in your opinion?
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by Glen Miller on Sun Jan 11, 2015 12:21 pm

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:If someone committed what I consider an extreme moral wrong I'd be quite happy to see them shuffle off their mortal coil, I'd think they'd got what they deserved if they were killed for it.
    Hang on, haven't you been outspoken in your opposition to the death penalty?  I know that you are being deliberately obnoxious and naughty in this thread to target Ahly, I just want clarity.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by ResurrectionRooney on Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:32 pm

    Ra's al Ghul wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:If someone committed what I consider an extreme moral wrong I'd be quite happy to see them shuffle off their mortal coil, I'd think they'd got what they deserved if they were killed for it.
    https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/strawman

    Who said anything about making offensive cartoons being an extreme moral wrong? It's unpleasant and propulsive of an already turbulent climate of discrimination, but it simply isn't an extreme moral wrong and his right to say such a thing should be protected. That's the whole point of that Voltaire non-quote that's been doing the rounds, that you don't have to agree with what a person says in order to fight for his right to say it. Putting aside the religious issue for a second since it's very contentious, let's examine this issue through the prism of race. Is it remotely arguable that making a cartoon of a black person swinging from a tree and eating a banana is something that is morally wrong? If so, is that something that is then worthy of death in your opinion?

    If one has certain beliefs then it would seem like an extreme moral wrong. If you believe that morals are decided arbitrarily by an almighty being, that he has decided that depicting this man is morally wrong and that killing someone doesn't actually end their life, instead sending them to a new world where that almighty being judges them in complete fairness then it's pretty easy to justify those killings. The fact that so many Muslims are coming out against those killing suggests one of two things to me

    1) That Muslims are lying about being opposed to the killings and actually think they're a good thing, at least somewhat justified
    2) That most Western Muslims don't take their faith all that seriously, and value Western, enlightenment morality above bronze age Islamic morality.

    I believe that 2) is the case, I've always felt that our superior culture - with evidence, science, freedom trumping superstition a d holy texts - here would quickly erode away much of the nonsense in Islam as far as it's practioners here are concerned. It did the same to a lot of Christian nonsense over the 19th and 20th centuries, the point where most UK people just pay it lip service. Believing that you have to defend people's right to slander the prophet is tremendous progress, but it's entirely unislamic in character.

    The difference in reaction between Muslims based in the West and those in the Middle East on social media supports 2 being the case, in less developed countries the attacks are broadly supported.

    I don't think it's morally wrong, I just think it's crass and unfunny. Certainly not worth killing over.

    Glen Miller wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:If someone committed what I consider an extreme moral wrong I'd be quite happy to see them shuffle off their mortal coil, I'd think they'd got what they deserved if they were killed for it.
    Hang on, haven't you been outspoken in your opposition to the death penalty?  I know that you are being deliberately obnoxious and naughty in this thread to target Ahly, I just want clarity.

    I wouldn't say outspoken, most civilised countries don't have the death penalty, but yes I'm opposed to it. It's very costly, its an entirely irrevocable punishment, it doesn't work as a deterrent, it actually encourages certain crimes because people have nothing to lose and I think life in jail is a harsher sentence anyway. The fact that I don't support it as public policy doesn't mean I'm not happy to see certain people go though. I was happy when Malcolm Glazer died but I wouldn't support the death penalty for what he did.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by SBSP on Mon Jan 12, 2015 12:17 am

    Try harder
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by FCB on Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:39 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:If one has certain beliefs then it would seem like an extreme moral wrong.  If you believe that morals are decided arbitrarily by an almighty being, that he has decided that depicting this man is morally wrong and that killing someone doesn't actually end their life, instead sending them to a new world where that almighty being judges them in complete fairness then it's pretty easy to justify those killings.  The fact that so many Muslims are coming out against those killing suggests one of two things to me

    1) That Muslims are lying about being opposed to the killings and actually think they're a good thing, at least somewhat justified
    2) That most Western Muslims don't take their faith all that seriously, and value Western, enlightenment morality above bronze age Islamic morality.

    I believe that 2) is the case, I've always felt that our superior culture - with evidence, science, freedom trumping superstition a d holy texts - here would quickly erode away much of the nonsense in Islam as far as it's practioners here are concerned.  It did the same to a lot of Christian nonsense over the 19th and 20th centuries, the point where most UK people just pay it lip service.  Believing that you have to defend people's right to slander the prophet is tremendous progress, but it's entirely unislamic in character.

    The difference in reaction between Muslims based in the West and those in the Middle East on social media supports 2 being the case, in less developed countries the attacks are broadly supported.

    I don't think it's morally wrong, I just think it's crass and unfunny.  Certainly not worth killing over.

    There is no doubt that there are Muslims out there that defend the killings. It's not just Western Muslims that are speaking out against it though.

    If you read the Quran, you won't find any worldly punishment prescribed for anyone who commits an act of blasphemy. So being against the killings doesn't make you any less of a Muslim. The Prophet (PBUH) himself was physically abused and mocked by people in Mecca yet he would turn the other cheek.

    You're also missing a huge side of the story. Even if death is a reasonable punishment for blasphemy, it's not the right of any random person to execute the punishment. The person has to be brought to court and the state executes the punishment if it finds it necessary. Also, many if not all the people that died were not the ones who committed the blasphemous act.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by ResurrectionRooney on Mon Jan 12, 2015 3:16 am

    FCB wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:If one has certain beliefs then it would seem like an extreme moral wrong.  If you believe that morals are decided arbitrarily by an almighty being, that he has decided that depicting this man is morally wrong and that killing someone doesn't actually end their life, instead sending them to a new world where that almighty being judges them in complete fairness then it's pretty easy to justify those killings.  The fact that so many Muslims are coming out against those killing suggests one of two things to me

    1) That Muslims are lying about being opposed to the killings and actually think they're a good thing, at least somewhat justified
    2) That most Western Muslims don't take their faith all that seriously, and value Western, enlightenment morality above bronze age Islamic morality.

    I believe that 2) is the case, I've always felt that our superior culture - with evidence, science, freedom trumping superstition a d holy texts - here would quickly erode away much of the nonsense in Islam as far as it's practioners here are concerned.  It did the same to a lot of Christian nonsense over the 19th and 20th centuries, the point where most UK people just pay it lip service.  Believing that you have to defend people's right to slander the prophet is tremendous progress, but it's entirely unislamic in character.

    The difference in reaction between Muslims based in the West and those in the Middle East on social media supports 2 being the case, in less developed countries the attacks are broadly supported.

    I don't think it's morally wrong, I just think it's crass and unfunny.  Certainly not worth killing over.

    There is no doubt that there are Muslims out there that defend the killings. It's not just Western Muslims that are speaking out against it though.

    If you read the Quran, you won't find any worldly punishment prescribed for anyone who commits an act of blasphemy. So being against the killings doesn't make you any less of a Muslim. The Prophet (PBUH) himself was physically abused and mocked by people in Mecca yet he would turn the other cheek.

    You're also missing a huge side of the story. Even if death is a reasonable punishment for blasphemy, it's not the right of any random person to execute the punishment. The person has to be brought to court and the state executes the punishment if it finds it necessary. Also, many if not all the people that died were not the ones who committed the blasphemous act.
    You'd agree that they're much less popular among Muslims in the west though?

    I've been doing some research into Muhammad, I read that once he was in power he had two girls killed because they sang a funny song about him, he killed their slavemaster as well for good measure.  He also wanted some poor bastard killed because he pled for his brother in law's life.  Are these stories disputed?

    While accepting that the killers did not have the right to do the killing, are you happy that the blasphemers are dead?  To put this into context, I don't believe that team of seals who killed the world's most famous Muslim had any right to do so and I think the people who ordered it should be prosecuted for conspiracy to murder.  I'm still happy Bin Laden died though.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by FCB on Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:48 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:You'd agree that they're much less popular among Muslims in the west though?

    I've been doing some research into Muhammad, I read that once he was in power he had two girls killed because they sang a funny song about him, he killed their slavemaster as well for good measure.  He also wanted some poor bastard killed because he pled for his brother in law's life.  Are these stories disputed?

    While accepting that the killers did not have the right to do the killing, are you happy that the blasphemers are dead?  To put this into context, I don't believe that team of seals who killed the world's most famous Muslim had any right to do so and I think the people who ordered it should be prosecuted for conspiracy to murder.  I'm still happy Bin Laden died though.

    It's not a religious issue. It's a cultural/societal issue. I don't think the majority of Muslims in East Asia or Turkey for example would agree with the killings. Arabs, by cultural, take insulting one's honor very seriously. They would kill to defend their honor. It's like the example of female genital mutilation. That's not an Islamic issue. It's a cultural one that is even prevalent in African, Christian nations.

    I never heard of those stories before, so they may very well be disputed. As you know, some Hadith are weak in strength. As far as the Quran, nothing like that was mentioned. If God wanted people to be killed on Earth for such a crime, he would have put it in the Quran.

    No, I'm not happy they are dead. I don't think their immoral behavior should result in death. Bin Laden killed innocents and caused chaos in society. That's something punishable by death, even though I also don't agree with the manner in which he was killed like you.

    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by Keyser Söze on Mon Jan 12, 2015 5:17 am

    Muslims are offended by the cartoon in the same way that Jews would be offended at being depicted as big nosed, money loving scammers. In the same way Gays would be offended by being depicted as AIDs ridden pedophiles that only love anal. The vast majority would not kill someone over it, but the vast majority are rightly offended by the images.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by ResurrectionRooney on Tue Jan 13, 2015 12:29 am

    FCB wrote:
    ResurrectionRooney wrote:You'd agree that they're much less popular among Muslims in the west though?

    I've been doing some research into Muhammad, I read that once he was in power he had two girls killed because they sang a funny song about him, he killed their slavemaster as well for good measure.  He also wanted some poor bastard killed because he pled for his brother in law's life.  Are these stories disputed?

    While accepting that the killers did not have the right to do the killing, are you happy that the blasphemers are dead?  To put this into context, I don't believe that team of seals who killed the world's most famous Muslim had any right to do so and I think the people who ordered it should be prosecuted for conspiracy to murder.  I'm still happy Bin Laden died though.

    It's not a religious issue. It's a cultural/societal issue. I don't think the majority of Muslims in East Asia or Turkey for example would agree with the killings. Arabs, by cultural, take insulting one's honor very seriously. They would kill to defend their honor. It's like the example of female genital mutilation. That's not an Islamic issue. It's a cultural one that is even prevalent in African, Christian nations.

    I never heard of those stories before, so they may very well be disputed. As you know, some Hadith are weak in strength. As far as the Quran, nothing like that was mentioned. If God wanted people to be killed on Earth for such a crime, he would have put it in the Quran.

    No, I'm not happy they are dead. I don't think their immoral behavior should result in death. Bin Laden killed innocents and caused chaos in society. That's something punishable by death, even though I also don't agree with the manner in which he was killed like you.

    Killing over depictions of a prophet isn't a religious issue?  OK then.

    They are from the oldest known biography of Muhammad.  Have you ever read any neutral accounts of his life?

    What would you like to have happened to them if not death?

    Keyser Söze wrote:Muslims are offended by the cartoon in the same way that Jews would be offended at being depicted as big nosed, money loving scammers. In the same way Gays would be offended by being depicted as AIDs ridden pedophiles that only love anal. The vast majority would not kill someone over it, but the vast majority are rightly offended by the images.

    Caricatures of a minority group are entirely different from a cartoon mocking an individual.

    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by Keyser Söze on Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:13 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    FCB wrote:

    It's not a religious issue. It's a cultural/societal issue. I don't think the majority of Muslims in East Asia or Turkey for example would agree with the killings. Arabs, by cultural, take insulting one's honor very seriously. They would kill to defend their honor. It's like the example of female genital mutilation. That's not an Islamic issue. It's a cultural one that is even prevalent in African, Christian nations.

    I never heard of those stories before, so they may very well be disputed. As you know, some Hadith are weak in strength. As far as the Quran, nothing like that was mentioned. If God wanted people to be killed on Earth for such a crime, he would have put it in the Quran.

    No, I'm not happy they are dead. I don't think their immoral behavior should result in death. Bin Laden killed innocents and caused chaos in society. That's something punishable by death, even though I also don't agree with the manner in which he was killed like you.

    Killing over depictions of a prophet isn't a religious issue?  OK then.

    They are from the oldest known biography of Muhammad.  Have you ever read any neutral accounts of his life?

    What would you like to have happened to them if not death?

    Keyser Söze wrote:Muslims are offended by the cartoon in the same way that Jews would be offended at being depicted as big nosed, money loving scammers. In the same way Gays would be offended by being depicted as AIDs ridden pedophiles that only love anal. The vast majority would not kill someone over it, but the vast majority are rightly offended by the images.

    Caricatures of a minority group are entirely different from a cartoon mocking an individual.
    It's effectively mocking an entire minority. Black people would be offended if someone drew a black hero like Martin Luther King or Uncle Ben as a monkey swinging from trees. Jews would be offended if someone drew Moses as a big nosed, money loving thief or as a Holocaust victim. Homosexuals would be offended if someone drew a Gay icon like Tom Cruise as a AIDs ridden pedo.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by FCB on Tue Jan 13, 2015 4:27 am

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:
    FCB wrote:

    It's not a religious issue. It's a cultural/societal issue. I don't think the majority of Muslims in East Asia or Turkey for example would agree with the killings. Arabs, by cultural, take insulting one's honor very seriously. They would kill to defend their honor. It's like the example of female genital mutilation. That's not an Islamic issue. It's a cultural one that is even prevalent in African, Christian nations.

    I never heard of those stories before, so they may very well be disputed. As you know, some Hadith are weak in strength. As far as the Quran, nothing like that was mentioned. If God wanted people to be killed on Earth for such a crime, he would have put it in the Quran.

    No, I'm not happy they are dead. I don't think their immoral behavior should result in death. Bin Laden killed innocents and caused chaos in society. That's something punishable by death, even though I also don't agree with the manner in which he was killed like you.

    Killing over depictions of a prophet isn't a religious issue?  OK then.

    They are from the oldest known biography of Muhammad.  Have you ever read any neutral accounts of his life?

    What would you like to have happened to them if not death?

    No, I meant killing to defend honor is a cultural issue, especially among Arabs. It could be over a cartoon about the Prophet or it could be as simple as an argument between two Bedouin families.

    I have.

    I think people should be barred from making such insulting and provocative material. If they do it, they could get a fine or something. It serves no purpose at all except to anger and incite people. This applies to anyone, not just such insults towards Muslims or Prophets. I do believe that freedom of speech has it's limits.

    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by Keyser Söze on Tue Jan 13, 2015 5:48 am

    That story about killing the girl Fartana was narrated by Al-Waqidi rofl Believe if you want but he's had 20,000 narrations confirmed as lies.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by ResurrectionRooney on Thu Jan 15, 2015 9:22 pm

    One thing I don't like about these protests and the general attitude in the West over this is how hypocritical the demands for freedom of speech are.  That Nazi comedian who Nicolas Anelka did the salute for was arrested yesterday for supporting the terrorists on Twitter, while huge numbers of people think Islamists should be jailed for burning poppies and saying soldiers will go to hell.

    If you're allowed to take the piss out or Muhammad in a way that will offend people - and you should be - you should be free to support whoever you like and demonstrate however you like.  Freedom of speech has limits but none of this goes near where they should be, and a half way house is an even worse solution.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by Glen Miller on Fri Jan 16, 2015 12:56 pm

    ResurrectionRooney wrote:One thing I don't like about these protests and the general attitude in the West over this is how hypocritical the demands for freedom of speech are.  That Nazi comedian who Nicolas Anelka did the salute for was arrested yesterday for supporting the terrorists on Twitter, while huge numbers of people think Islamists should be jailed for burning poppies and saying soldiers will go to hell.

    If you're allowed to take the piss out or Muhammad in a way that will offend people - and you should be - you should be free to support whoever you like and demonstrate however you like.  Freedom of speech has limits but none of this goes near where they should be, and a half way house is an even worse solution.
    I agree.
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    Re: Islamist Terror Attacks in France

    Post by SBSP on Fri Jan 16, 2015 2:24 pm

    I agree too.

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